47 coaches online • Server time: 15:52
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Borg Invasiongoto Post DIBBL Season 13 (NZ ...goto Post Is 60 too old to pla...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
Dark Elf runners yay or nay?
Yes - Strictly runners
35%
 35%  [ 23 ]
Yes - Passers
20%
 20%  [ 13 ]
Never - More AV7 sucks
37%
 37%  [ 24 ]
Pie!
6%
 6%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 64


mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 00:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
MattDakka wrote:

In Box Assassins are a rare sight,


that's because Box is for people with emotional issues...and those people gravitate towards claw teams.

Assassins do not possess claws...thus a rare sight.

Once an assassin gains block and side step, opponents avoid them at all costs.


I don't know about that.

I think if I were to run assassins it'd be wrestle jump up ones and run them next to one another on the pitch so that if one fails to stab, the other can wrestle down the opponent. Rinse Repeat.

Really though being AV7 and not being able to push players off of themselves with stab is harder to figure. If you need an armor break, use a boot.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 00:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:

that's because Box is for people with emotional issues...and those people gravitate towards claw teams.

I play a lot in the Box and with rule changes and the Box Trophy meta event the claw trend decreased and the variety has been improved.
Arktoris wrote:

Assassins do not possess claws...thus a rare sight.

The other DE players do not possess claw, yet they are used. The reason is they have good price/stats/skills.
Arktoris wrote:

Once an assassin gains block and side step, opponents avoid them at all costs.

Since there is no PO anymore, Tackle is now taken sooner, and when your Assassin gets Block and Side Step chances are he will be facing Tackle coupled with Mighty Blow.
Guess who avoids whom?

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 02:01 Reply with quote Back to top

https://fumbbl.com/p/teams?group=&race=&order=5&nav=10

not seeing other dark elves either.

a tackle mighty blow player needs a helper to get 2d block which potentially ties up two players with one. Even with help, he only has a 55% chance to get an roll av. Also, he has an 3% of hurting himself and suffering a turnover. Furthermore, if he's needed elsewhere, he has to deal with shadowing.

the assassin needs no other help. He has a 100% chance to roll av with 0% chance to hurt himself and suffer a turnover. if needed somewhere else, he dodges away from your tackler on a mere 2+...laughing.

come at me, bro.

More importantly, while your tackle mightblow is tied up by my shadower, he's not blitzing my blodge ballcarrier which is about to score...and that's the object of the game.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Norscan Warrior!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 02:27 Reply with quote Back to top

If you don't see Dark Elves then there are no developed Assassins as well, as I said.
The teams I face don't have developed Assassins, this is my anecdotal experience.

So, when your opponent has a Blodge Side Step AV 7 Assassin you suddenly are scared and refrain from blitzing/blocking him with Tackle Mighty Blow because your player risks to be tied by him?
Really? It's ridiculous, honestly, what's the point of developing a Tackle Mighty Blow player if you don't use him to counter players with Dodge and low AV?

About needing an helper: there are players with Horns or ST 4, and anyway bringing 1 assist is not that hard most of times, especially now that Guard and Tackle are more common even at low TV.
Let's talk about the 55% chance: unlike your Stab, Blocks can be rerolled, that means 80.24% knock down chance.

Yes, the Assassin can roll the AV 100% (assuming he's still standing or he blitzed), for how many turns before he gets removed from the pitch? 1 or 2? Especially because, unlike a normal hitter, your Assassin can't run back and hide after the Stab.

Even assuming my Tackle MB is tied, do you think that a team facing a developed Assassin has just 1 Tackle player or that only Tacklers are allowed to blitz your Blodge ball carrier? Never heard of Wrestlers? Or Frenzy players? Or 2d blocks rolling POWs?
You can write endlessly trying to portray the Assassin as scary player, but are you able to actually show it by making a DE team in the Box?
Because you know, writing is easier than actual playing.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 14, 2017 - 14:31; edited 1 time in total
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 05:16 Reply with quote Back to top

when my assassins are on the pitch, my opponents *never* engage them. All the numbers you toss out can't replace that.

4ST? 7ST? 9ST block and dodge surrounded by 5 guards? No problem...stab. Make an AV roll.

Why would my assassin run and hide? He's got the advantage on you. Running away...that's for the tackle mightblow guy to do. fear.

Not stupid. If I ever decide to stop playing real bloodbowl and play in box...it would be a min max'd stalling claw team...like everyone else with 1000 game box teams. Positive win ratio and positive cas ratio...like shooting fish in a barrel.

Only challenge would be how to fight the boredom after game #50.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Norscan Warrior!
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 08:20 Reply with quote Back to top

They have their place as Leader caddy in NAF-style tournaments. Otherwise, never.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 14:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
when my assassins are on the pitch, my opponents *never* engage them. All the numbers you toss out can't replace that.

The numbers I can toss can't replace you play vs bad opponents and use that to claim that Assassins are scary? Fair enough.
Arktoris wrote:

4ST? 7ST? 9ST block and dodge surrounded by 5 guards? No problem...stab. Make an AV roll.

Oh, scary! Then the Assassin gets blocked, AV 7 is not exactly high AV, you know. He's going to get stunned or removed from the pitch.
Arktoris wrote:
Why would my assassin run and hide? He's got the advantage on you. Running away...that's for the tackle mightblow guy to do. fear.

Ahahah yes, sure. Laughing This is why I don't see Assassins, they are so strong that no coach wants to unleash their gamebreaking power.
Arktoris wrote:
Not stupid. If I ever decide to stop playing real bloodbowl and play in box...it would be a min max'd stalling claw team...like everyone else with 1000 game box teams. Positive win ratio and positive cas ratio...like shooting fish in a barrel.

So, Assassins are scary, but you would play a claw team. Maybe you didn't notice it but the meta has changed, and coaches stopped playing minmax claw teams. The claw teams (I guess you are referring to Chaos and Nurgle) are generally mid-high TV and not minmaxed. There is somebody playing minmax Chaos Renegades but he's not the majority of the Box teams.
Arktoris wrote:
Only challenge would be how to fight the boredom after game #50.

Fair enough, the scary Assassin can safely stab in your fantastic theoric game universe.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 15:30 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

Ahahah yes, sure. Laughing This is why I don't see Assassins, they are so strong that no coach wants to unleash their gamebreaking power.


Already told you why you don't see them in the box. No, they're not gamebreaking in power, that's going overboard.

The reason why people don't see their potential is because most people want to play beginner teams. And as stated before, a rookie assassin is meh.

The third reason why not is, most people today don't know how to think. Their brain is not in their skull, it's in their hand. What do I think about Trump, gay marriage, intelligent design, or AGW? I dunno, what does my phone instruct me to think about them?

Nobody's phone is telling them to hire assassins. Everyone wants to be the i-drone...no one wants to experiment and find the answers themselves.

Normally I don't talk in depth about shadowing or assassins, because I enjoy the fact it's a secret. I simply use it as an edge over the i-drone coaches.
for this reason, this will be my last response on the topic.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Norscan Warrior!
Macabeo



Joined: Feb 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 17:09 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem is that 4 MA7 Blitzers make other positionals not as attractive in comparison.

Personally I would make the DE Blitzers MA6 with an additional skill and give Assassins MA7 for free. This way Runners have an edge over Blitzers, the team is slightly nerfed, Assassins are buffed in a synergistic way and the positionals also help with the relative slowness of the DE team.

As the additional skill I would give them Tackle to reflect their offensive role and their hatred towards WEs, but some other skill could also be fine.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 17:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Macabeo wrote:

As the additional skill I would give them Tackle to reflect their offensive role and their hatred towards WEs, but some other skill could also be fine.

According to the WHFB fluff, the Dark Elves hate the High Elves, not the Wood Elves.
Although Wood Elves are High Elves' descendants, they settled in Athel Loren and don't live in Ulthuan anymore.
The Dark Elves' main goal is conquering Ulthuan, not Athel Loren.

About changing the Assassin:

I like Garion's Shadow Blade (elite Dark Elf Assassin)
Image
7 3 4 7
Dodge, Shadowing, Stab GA PS 100,000 gps

With MA 7 and Dodge he can get Blodge at 6 SPPs to have some protection and dodging reliability, Shadowing is more useful, and he's faster than a Lineman (as an Assassin is supposed to be, according to fluff they are fast).

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 14, 2017 - 17:56; edited 1 time in total
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

@Matt: I think your suggestion is interesting. Could possibly also reduce the number of Blitzers to 2, so they haven't got easy access to too much MA7 and blodge at 6spps.

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2017 - 18:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
MattDakka wrote:

Ahahah yes, sure. Laughing This is why I don't see Assassins, they are so strong that no coach wants to unleash their gamebreaking power.


Already told you why you don't see them in the box. No, they're not gamebreaking in power, that's going overboard.

The reason why people don't see their potential is because most people want to play beginner teams. And as stated before, a rookie assassin is meh.

The third reason why not is, most people today don't know how to think. Their brain is not in their skull, it's in their hand. What do I think about Trump, gay marriage, intelligent design, or AGW? I dunno, what does my phone instruct me to think about them?

Nobody's phone is telling them to hire assassins. Everyone wants to be the i-drone...no one wants to experiment and find the answers themselves.

Normally I don't talk in depth about shadowing or assassins, because I enjoy the fact it's a secret. I simply use it as an edge over the i-drone coaches.
for this reason, this will be my last response on the topic.


So when you go back to your hermits cave, should we seal it off behind you or what?
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by PNphpBB2 1.2 © 2003 PNphpBB Group
Credits