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ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 21:06 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm about to enter my 2nd ever Major. The Warpstone Open. Now that there are fewer Majors this will hopefully mean more fluff and fanfare. Each Major should be bigger and better than before. It'd be nice if energy was channeled towards this rather than the us vs them mentality of Ranked vs Box.

Or maybe... channel the vitriol into a genuine R vs B pissing match. Anyone want to keep score on all the R v B matches in the upcoming Major? Go BOX! Very Happy
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Well my entry will be entirely based on which team is currently in the best shape. I couldn't give a monkeys whether that is a box or a ranked team.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 21:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks Christer for clarifying. Sounds like a positive for the site overall.

I know seasons is coming to League. With common tournaments for Ranked and Box, I guess they either both get seasons, or neither do? Anyway change is good. Appreciate all the efforts.

_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 22:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
That idea that you posit yourself as Ukraine and not Russia...that speaks to some lack of self awareness something fierce.


Is UKRAINE trying to take stuff from RUSSIA?

NO. So please. Troll elsewhere.


Ukrainians dont have the Russian victim complex youre displaying. Again, your lack self awareness here is staggering. Can you try and get out of your own way for one post? Like, youve denigrated basically everyone on the site besides arktoris in one way or another.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 22:03 Reply with quote Back to top

ramchop wrote:
I'm about to enter my 2nd ever Major. The Warpstone Open. Now that there are fewer Majors this will hopefully mean more fluff and fanfare. Each Major should be bigger and better than before. It'd be nice if energy was channeled towards this rather than the us vs them mentality of Ranked vs Box.

Or maybe... channel the vitriol into a genuine R vs B pissing match. Anyone want to keep score on all the R v B matches in the upcoming Major? Go BOX! Very Happy


See, ramchop gets it.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 22:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

That's easy for you to say Matt.
When BOX came along you were already a very good coach.

Thanks, but you are overrating me. I'm not that good but I was even worse when I still played in Ranked, so I don't think that the inability of finding games was due to my coaching skill, but to people's preference to play vs Elves, even if losing and even if they were TV 1700.
Catalyst32 wrote:
I NEEDED an environment where I could chose my team and my opponent.

I agree, to learn the basics there is League Division.

Personally, if you want to trust me, of course, I learned more and improved when I could not choose opponent/team.
Picking/refusing offers is not a good recipe to learn, you either get picked or pick. Both things are bad.
Catalyst32 wrote:
IF you had your way any NEW coach would have been stuck facing nothing but CLPOMB CHAOS rosters 90% of the time while trying to learn the game.

This is not true, because after some time a rookie team protection was added to the Box, and with new rules there is no PO anymore, so the bash has been nerfed.
You can find some serious bash after TV 1600, roughly, but before that, the bash is not as strong and senseless as used to be during CRP.
Without PO, there is no excuse for not playing in the Box now.
Catalyst32 wrote:
1 division that has BOTH a computer scheduler AND the open matching environment is the best option.

Nope, because teams playing only by picking/refusing games would have an advantage over teams developed through matchmaking only.
An Elf team choosing soft opponents would have more developed and less injured players than an Elf team which played MM only. It's crystal clear, really.
Catalyst32 wrote:
There is no reason to FORCE either group to use only 1 method to arrange games.

The rational reason is to ensure the most fair competition possible, and that requires that the matching criteria are the same for all the teams playing in a Division.
Catalyst32 wrote:
LISTEN TO LOGIC...
In Ranked you can play whoever is willing to play you. You can't really complain because YOU had to AGREE to play the game.

In Box you will be paired with a team of similar TV to yours. You can't really complain because YOU chose the TV of your team and agreed to a random pairing to a random team of a similar TV.

My problem with that is, while the scheduler is an impartial way of matching 2 coaches, and in the long run that means that the majority of match ups will be fair, in Ranked nothing ensures that a coach doesn't prey on noobs/careless coaches who are not picky about the offers and farms his team through easier matches. In other words, in theory arranging games via gamefinder is FAIR assuming that both coaches are interested to play a balanced match up/have a brain smart enough to assess the offer and judge its fairness. Actually, this doesn't happen, as far as I can see by looking randomly at Ranked games in progress.
Catalyst32 wrote:
So WHO CARES where your opponent played their last 5 to 10 games?

If say, your Wood Elf team has played its last 5 games vs Halflings and my Wood Elf team has faced Orcs, Chaos Dwarfs, Necros, Dwarfs, Humans chances are that your team will have more developed players, and less injuries. Its efficiency will be therefore higher, because injured players don't reduce the TV. So, I would care, yes, because the team which picked its games would have an unfair meta-advantage over my team.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Jan 12, 2018 - 22:34; edited 2 times in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 22:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Dakka, you unwittingly try to stack the deck in your favor and call it fair. Own it.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 23:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:
Catalyst AD is a euro who for a long time was playing during NA evenings. Thats why he said he has played more NA box than some of the NA coaches. Usually when having a discussion its good to read what people are writing.



Tell that to everyone that is Trolling me in this thread. THANKS
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 23:06 Reply with quote Back to top

If we're not merging the divisions then I would have expected one Box only + one Ranked only and the rest shared.

Otherwise, you may as well merge the divisions.
(With a "pure only" flag)

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 23:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris is 1 of the coolest mofos on this site and probably the planet.




mrt1212 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
That idea that you posit yourself as Ukraine and not Russia...that speaks to some lack of self awareness something fierce.


Is UKRAINE trying to take stuff from RUSSIA?

NO. So please. Troll elsewhere.


Ukrainians dont have the Russian victim complex youre displaying. Again, your lack self awareness here is staggering. Can you try and get out of your own way for one post? Like, youve denigrated basically everyone on the site besides arktoris in one way or another.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 23:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst, like all of us, you speak for yourself and no-one else. You don't care about 'competitive purity' with regards to BB: fine, that's your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, there are at least some people who play in the Box who do care about that. Surely they are entitled to an opinion as well, even if it differs from yours?

People talk about 'us and them' and 'Ranked vs Box', etc. The thing is, there are two different groups of coaches on the site, who want different things from open play on FUMBBL. After all, isn't that the underlying reason why two different divisions were created in the first place? And, surely the whole point of having a division is that there is a division? I.e. the playing environments are separate.

This decision to merge Ranked and Box tourneys is undermining the original intent of having two separate divisions.

It seems to be the Ranked-leaning coaches mostly that are happy with this decision, because they don't care about 'competitive purity' and just want to play BB. However, I think it's a shame that they are so eager to destroy someone else's fun, just because they don't understand it.

_________________
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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 23:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Thanks Christer for clarifying. Sounds like a positive for the site overall.

I know seasons is coming to League. With common tournaments for Ranked and Box, I guess they either both get seasons, or neither do? Anyway change is good. Appreciate all the efforts.



YES. Thank you Christer.
But also... you gotta combine Raked and Box allowing BOTH methods of getting a game. By not doing it you are enabling the BOX PRIDE chest pounders to continue their worst behavior. On the Ranked side APPARENTLY only I am willing to behave like a Chest Pounder right back to the.
The chest pounding would all go away if you combined them into 1 division. In truth... you have all but combined them NOW in every way but the most important way possible.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
The chest pounding would all go away if you combined them into 1 division. In truth... you have all but combined them NOW in every way but the most important way possible.


Many of the 'chest pounders' (aka: people who don't agree with you) would probably go away, leaving the FUMBBL player pool even more diminished. Sounds great for the future of the site Smile

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 23:20 Reply with quote Back to top

THis is also MY POINT. The scheduler is basically DENIED to me. And that is where I need to play ore than ever at this stage in my development. But I cannot get games there.

[quote="MattDakka"]
Personally, if you want to trust me, of course, I learned more and improved when I could not choose opponent/team.
Picking/refusing offers is not a good recipe to learn, you either get picked or pick. Both things are bad.
Catalyst32 wrote:
1 division that has BOTH a computer scheduler AND the open matching environment is the best option.

Nope, because teams playing only by picking/refusing games would have an advantage over teams developed through matchmaking only.
An Elf team choosing soft opponents would have more developed and less injured players than an Elf team which played MM only. It's crystal clear, really.

[quote="Catalyst32"]
As for the rest you are just WRONG and if nothing else playing your BOX team in Ranked tournaments should teach you that... to a point.
But playing Ranked teams of EQUAL TV via a scheduler... where no picking could go on... where teams would be fairly assigned... the Matches would be just as fair.
I could get 5 easy or lucky games in a row if I was in Box... and then face you after the 5 worst games ever... but BOTH teas would be TV1400... and it would be as FAIR as any other matches you get.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2018 - 23:41 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:

This decision to merge Ranked and Box tourneys is undermining the original intent of having two separate divisions.


Yeah... well we DON'T have 2 divisions do we?
We have the ever disappearing domain of RANKED. And the ever expanding at the expense of Ranked BOX.
And only the Box Pride crowd gets everything that they want. Don't we?
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