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Scarlak



Joined: Dec 07, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 11:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Only just found the thread whilst bored at work. Thank you to all for helping me pass the time and make me chuckle.

No matter what system you use people will always find a way to abuse from cherry picking in rank to mono team selection in box during quiet periods. Good luck to them I say, they know what they do and so do we. Its a matter of choice.

In principle I like the idea of having reduced majors. Five seems a nice number and should make them special. As much as people try to show it favours one or the other it really doesn't and people adapt, find a way, that's what makes this site great. The level of play is exceptional with good coaches always coming up with new ideas that people mimic.

I love the black box trophy and I love my ranked Warpheadz. And for a chuckle please observe the last time I decided to cherry pick in ranked with a coach below my ability. Nuffle will always get you.

SPLAT

Some majors are dead, long live Fumbbl.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 12:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, mrt, I'm at the airport and I've got a few minutes. Here's the thing: all this talk about competitiveness between R and B teams and whether a pimped up R team actually gives you a higher chance to win a major, is largely irrelevant to the point I am trying to make, which you keep missing.

For me, it's not about maximising my chances to win a tourney, it's about the process that a team goes through to get there. As far as I am concerned, I am not interested in facing tainted, pimped up R teams with my Box teams. Not because I think they'll beat me, but because, in many cases, those coaches have chosen the easy option to get there. Those teams don't deserve to be there - they haven't earned the right to be competing against my honest Box teams in a tournament. Who wins the game or the tourney is totally irrelevant.

In some ways, I would rather play against Death Gaurd Legion and lose, than play against a pimped R team and win.

It seems that for you, open play is just a means to an end. As long as we end up with a tourney at the end of it where everyone is more or less on a level playing field, it's all good. I think that is where our opinions differ. For me, the whole playing environment matters - the process that you go through to get to that tourney at the end matters.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 12:41 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
It seems that for you, open play is just a means to an end. As long as we end up with a tourney at the end of it where everyone is more or less on a level playing field, it's all good. I think that is where our opinions differ. For me, the whole playing environment matters - the process that you go through to get to that tourney at the end matters.


Sure, but how many people does it matter to? Compared to how many people would be more likely to play if the divisions were merged.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 13:10 Reply with quote Back to top

@koadah: Those are good questions and I can only speak for myself. Although, I'm not sure I agree that the overall number of games would increase, if the divs were merged. (Besides, is quantity all we care about?)

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DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 13:27 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Man, I wish one of you malcontents had won more than 3 official tournaments over your tenure here so that the complaint of 'uneven playing field' had some sort of basis.


This made me laugh. JellyBelly, MattDakka are saying in a nutshell that at least some FUMBBL Majors should be fair for everyone – the hard-core, part-timers and newcomers. And you respond that we are not good enough coaches to have an opinion on this? That is exactly the sort of elitest nonsense we are opposing.

Ok maybe a really good coach would have more of an insight into the new metadynamics of FUMBBL Majors, so let’s explore your patronising and slightly offensive point. MattDakka moves between Legend and a high Superstar on here, and has been as high as Rank 11 on CR. Over the last year Jellybelly has also spent almost all his time as either a Legend or Superstar. I have usually been a Legend in the top 50 for the last five years. Despite only having played 758 games in that time I have made a FUMBBL Cup Final, which after all my moves were played out in normal time I had a ~67% chance of winning whatever my opponent did (I lost, so does that mean my opinion now counts for nought lol?). I’ve also made a Warpstone Open Semi, and won two qualifier tournaments in the UI and GTT, despite not having the time to enter many of these Majors (much as I would have loved to). I've also finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd out of 13 NAF tournaments so far, including runner-up in the Welsh Open which is the second biggest UK tournament. You have played over 3000 games but have consistently been ranked below average, have achieved nothing at all in Majors, and have an overall losing record (48%). So by your very own elitest argument coaches should listen to MattDakka, JellyBelly and me, and ignore you!

I don’t actually believe in that elitest nonsense you are strangely suggesting, and that is our very point –the showcase Majors should be equally open to ALL coaches, whether they are hard-core gamers here, part-timers, or newbies. That is going out of the window with the recent GW rules changes, and now these Majors changes, which are a poisonous combination where farmed Ranked mega-teams created by coaches who are able to play here every day get a huge and unfair advantage.

Koadah made a good point that only 2 of the quarter-finalists in the last FUMBBL Cup were Blackbox. Looking at the last four in detail, the winner ended the tournament with 2540TV, and the others were 2360 (finalist), 2110 and 2070. When I previously got far in the Majors I mentioned above, I used teams of 1600 to 1800. It was achievable because with the old ruleset, Ranked teams didn’t get so farmed and pimped (spiralling expenses), and the inducements were fairer (+wizard, and a much better inducement system where you couldn’t use a pot of gold to attempt to buy games). I still have teams in that sort of bracket, but frankly I think their chances now of doing anything comparable in the current environment are very low indeed, so low I’m not sure I will even bother entering any Majors for a while now (unless I can spend probably about half a year to get at least one team up there? Sigh).

I repeat – Majors are the showcase of this site, and therefore if we want FUMBBL to thrive then at least SOME of them should offer a fairly-level playing field to all coaches. I understand that games between really high TV teams are fun to watch, and it’s also fun fluff-wise to have long-running big teams with rich histories. Not arguing with that. But if ALL the Majors only cater to hard-core gamers who have the time to build - or even farm - mega Ranked sides, it risks alienating part-timers and newcomers. None of us want that, do we? Or maybe some do, but as the hard-core gamers continue to enjoy Majors, many of the others will switch off and FUMMBL will continue to decline. I hope I’m wrong, but that is the way I see it – in fact I think it is already happening from the games-played stats, and it seems others share these concerns.

To end on a positive note - the Blackbox Trophy did the right thing, and created a competitive environment where all sides could fairly compete from low TV up. Result - a resounding success with LOADS more games played in Box. (Just a shame the bar is so high at ~ 200 games in a year, if it had been lower the uptake would have been even higher!). We should be aiming at THAT kind of approach for Ranked and Majors too.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 15:19 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

learn to play better, build more efficiently in regards to SPP and Skills on a per game basis (not whatever nonsense The Book of Dakka says about maintaining an illusory TV for stacking the deck in your favor in Bowlbot paired matches)

When I talked about efficiency it was during cpomb era, and as I already explained in the past, my TV management's goal was not to gain an unfair advantage in term of pairing (this is called minmaxing, like a certain Chaos Renegades team does), but to stay away from the cpomb-nonsense-matches-TV zone.
If I wanted to minmax I would have played lot of games with Chorfs, Dwarfs, Chaos Renegades, Amazons and Undead at low TV, while it's clearly demonstrable that I didn't that. I played my share of high TV games here and on BB1.

That said, back on track.
I play Elves in Box quite a lot and I think that building them there is harder than in Ranked, this is my anedoctal experience.
For sure I can improve my gameplay (learning never ends), but about efficient builds, I don't think my Elf teams suffer from lack of skill efficiency. Instead they lack a bench because whenever I try to get more than 11 players they get crippled (and therefore fired) or killed.
This is not a problem, because I'm not a pixelhugger and in Box my team gets generally paired with an opponent of similar TV, but in a Major an elven team with killer Blitzers, MA 10 one turners and a bench has an advantage over an elven team without a bench, one turners, stat freaks, killers etc. and without Wizard and all the inducements from BB2016 is even harder to deal with way higher overdogs.
On top of that, assuming I manage to win some games in a Major, the toll taken by the casualties affects the efficiency of a team without a bench more than a team more developed and with a bench.
You could say: "You should not join a Major if your team is not developed enough, blame yourself."
And this is true but reduces the number of coaches joining Majors, I think.
A good idea I have read in this thread is adding a cap for some Majors (1600? 1700? 1800? Something like that).
That would reduce the chance of mismatches and would put more emphasy on coaching than on developing a team.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 15:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Scarlak wrote:

No matter what system you use people will always find a way to abuse from cherry picking in rank to mono team selection in box during quiet periods.

And it doesn't take an incredible mind effort to fix such exploits.
Monoactivation could be stopped by forcing coaches to activate more than 1 team and by introducing a TV gap cap.
Cherrypicking could be fixed by deleting Ranked.

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 15:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I have never been a huge fan of majors, though not to PurpleGoo levels. I play them to 'join in' but don't really have the time, interest, or availability of R game offers to really build a team ready for a Majors run. I think rationalising them is a good idea. It's not exactly as I'd have done it, but it's very close.

I also don't see why any team built in a competitive division should not be allowed to enter. When I was Tourney manager I always had plans ready for the day someone told me to let everyone into everything.

But then I don't see myself as an R coach or a B coach, but as a FUMBBL coach. I have hence never understood why R and B exist as different and the scheduler isnt available to all (with a 'flag' for 'pure' scheduler teams so those few can be happy).

I have always felt the more competitive Tournaments were the Capped and lower TV ones. These do seem to be very rare nowadays, and maybe they don't have the player base to keep running, but I do miss scheduled smacks at set TV limits. It does feel at times as if the Minor Tourney scene has become all about huge teams smashing into smaller teams.

If I have a concern it is that one of my guiding principles was to try and create/provide Tourneys so that every coach at every level with every team at every level had some sort of Tourney option available to them if they wished. I feel this is no longer true.

I do think a decent default position is to trust whoever is running Tournaments to do what they think is best, and if it isn't to provide feedback and hope they change it, so that's my feedback as to where we stand.

As to the future, with this new change? Perhaps we could see how things go and then rage?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 16:00 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:

I also don't see why any team built in a competitive division should not be allowed to enter. When I was Tourney manager I always had plans ready for the day someone told me to let everyone into everything.


That is why the Fumbbl Cup is the big one. Smile

I would dump one of the existing Majors for a huge Fumbbl Cup style capped tournament.

Letting everyone in is probable better for the community. Though you may have more of the less fanatical coaches failing to get their games done.

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Strider84



Joined: Jun 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 17:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually with the NAF tourneys you already have a bice format where everyone can join without having to spend time on team building. I might do one with a bit higher tv this year
Nightbird



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 18:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Not a big tourney guy at all, but I get what people are saying here. Seems the next step, & what I'd prefer, would be to simply merge Box & Ranked. Allow people to freely choose between using the game-finder & matchmaker whenever they feel like it. IMO that would be the ideal at this point. One competitive division, yet again (Been here a while. Wink), for all to complain about at once. Razz

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 18:28 Reply with quote Back to top

almic85 wrote:
Catalyst it looks like you just want the divisions merged so you get an autoscheduler in ranked and can switch between the modes. Is this right?
I don’t see how this will increase the number of people using that scheduler in your Timezone if there are already not enough people using the Box division in your Timezone. If no one is using it now In Box why would they use it in Ranked?



YEAH. I KNOW you don't get it.
THIS is why it would increase participation.
When reading this... know that my M button sticks so there will be plenty of typos. Imagine an M in there somewhere and that might help when you find one.


As it is the player base is DIVIDED. And not just divided between Ranked and Box. It is also Divisded into League and Secret League (and I assume Stunty is still going on idk) and there might even be more divisions on the site.
PLUS you have to consider the competition like Cyanide. There are coaches that COULD be playing here during the hours I am talking about that are playing there instead... maybe because they cannot find a game here.


FIRST YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE ENVIRONMENT
The US has 4 Time Zones... as you may know there are Oceans on both side of the country where more or less NOBODY lives. I have tried outreach to ATLANTIS but with no success.
2/3 of the US population lives in the Eastern Time Zone... I imagine it is similar in Canada but I don't know.
Most of the rest of the population lives on the West Coast.
The Mountain Time Zone (closest to the West Coast) is more or less an empty wasteland full of HUGE mountains, Deserts, Scrublands, and Rocky land that is hard to Farm... but it is hot as ball in the South and a Frozen Tundra in the North.
The Central Time Zone is mostly Farmland, mostly Rural with some exceptions like Chicago, Detroit, St Louis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, Nashville, Birmingham, New Orleans and all of Eastern Texas. Oh yeah... and whatever is going on in Canada. My bad Canucks.

THEN THERE IS THE COACHES OF FUMBBL
What you don't understand is that despite it being virtually impossible to use the Box here IT DOES HAPPEN from time to time. But most of the time there are fewer than 4 coaches trying to activate in the Box. Every now and then they get lucky enough to get a game IF they have the tie to reactivate all day long.

Plus there are coaches here who CAN play during the Euro timeslot. I used to be 1 of them in the days BEFORE BOX. I had a Night Job mainly and tons of tie during the day. I had so much time then that I was able to play in WIL which is a British/Euro time zones only league.
I was able to play in any Ranked Tournament because I could easily accommodate the Euro players that make up a vast Majority of the Tournament coaches... and the Aussy and Kiwis weren't so hard if they could play when I got off work and most could. I even flirted with the idea of joining SWL... but I realized I would have been a burden on the so I didn't.

But I digress... the coaches here in NA that don't have jobs, or work nights, or have otherwise strange work patterns get the chance to use the BOX. And those guys build up teams and are often around to play either Ranked OR Box and some of the Euros are around late enough to fill up the NA Box.

Some of these guys over here that have Box teams will ONLY play there even if they have to wait most of the night. Some will enter Ranked and Box and who knows how any other Blood Bowl options.

Then there are the coaches that mainly just want to play Ranked. And lots of them are NEW coaches. Some of these coaches are not GOOD and know it and have had bad experiences in the BOX and avoid it. So try to play in BOTH wherever they can get games. Some are dedicated Pickers. They come in all varieties... including some of the best coaches on FUMBBL that will take on ANYBODY with ANY TEAM.
Still... with the Ranked Pool of coaches. Sometimes you have to sit around forever to get a game. In part because of the nature of Ranked... but often because there just aren't enough players.

Then there is a dedicated group of LEAGUE coaches. These guys flock together to get games mainly. Rather than wait around in Ranked and Box NOT PLAYING they find as many Leagues as they can handle to get their game fix.
Like other coaches maybe the hate Ranked or they hate the Box... or they just hate freaking WAITING around NOT PLAYING. Some of them just prefer being in a League... and I have heard some say it is because that is what the RULES are WRITTEN for... Leagues... not perpetual play of BOX and Ranked.

SO... as you see there is a diverse pool of coaches here. SPLIT into at least 3 Divisions or more PLUS Cyanide etc. And some like me TRY to play in all. And League should be split so people can customize their experience.


NOW... WHY IT WOULD WORK
Why would merging the 2... Box and Ranked open up the Scheduler to more use in NA.
SIMPLE... it gets rid of the Division... as in the SEPARATION of so many coaches.

PEOPLE want to play their FAVORITE TEAM(s).
If you are always in BOX... your favorite team(s) are ALSO going to be in the Box. And unless you have unlimited time you do not want to have to build and rebuild teams in multiple environments.
(Every time I finally get a BOX game it has been so long since I used the team I don't even remember the team.)
Same goes for RANKED... if your favorite team are in Ranked... those are the teas you want to play. (Since I got here BEFORE there was a BOX all of my favorite teams are in Ranked excluding League of course.)

IF your FAVORITE TEAM can use BOTH Game Finder and the Scheduler you can use them in the environment that has games tonight.
If the Box is HOT on Tuesday and Game Finder is DEAD where are you going to go?
If on Wednesday nobody is in the Box trying to cue up... but Game Finder has 12 coaches on it where are you going to put your favorite team?
People that want to play a Competitive Match could check Game Finder AND the Scheduler

It is simply a matter of FREEDOM to chose.
Nobody can make you take your Favorite team and put the in the BOX or RANKED if you don't want them to go there.
So IF you want to only be in the scheduler you can STAY there.
IF you only want to use the Game Finder you can STAY there.
But if you just want to get games with your FAVORITE TEAM... you are not allowed to go where the games are that night. You are STUCK.

It is nothing more than foolish senses of purity and an irrational fear of "PIMPED ELVES" keeping this from happening.
What is the worst thing that is going to happen when you face some "piped Elves"... what? You LOSE a freaking game. SERIOUSLY?
Are those "PIMPED ELVES" going to rip your team apart? Not likely. Most likely you are going to squash a few of those Elves like bugs. Especially if you take TACKLE instead of avoiding it like so many people do.

Well... wait a minute... isn't 1 of the largest complaints about the BOX that there is a lack of diversity? And especially at HIGH TV the lack of diversity? Hmmm.
Doesn't everybody complain that it is just SO HARD to build Elves to a HIGH TV in BOX... and hard to build ANYTHING without AV9 or CLAW to a high TV in BOX? Hmmm.
Well... there must be NO SOLUTION TO THAT!!!

OH WAIT? There IS a solution to that.
And it is MERGED BOX AND RANKED.

Aren't the 3 biggest complaints about Ranked...
1) FILTHY PICKERS!!!
2) People can just duck you and you can't get games with your favorite team because of it.
3) You cannot really build a Basher team right and even if your ELVES get really good nobody will play them.
Well... there must be NO SOLUTION TO THAT!!!

OH WAIT? There IS a solution to that. (Except for filthy pickers!!!)
And it is MERGED BOX AND RANKED.

And the ONLY THING that keeps the solution to 3 of the 4 worst things about the competitive divisions here on FUMBBL is a FEAR of facing some PIMPED ELVES and LOSING a FREAKING GAME that you are always complaining that you can never get because the Elves cannot build themselves up high enough in the BOX.

Sorry but if you are afraid of PIMPED ELVES you are not a good enough coach to beat that Chaos team or Orc team or Nurgle team you are going to face at the top end of the Box without all the dice on your side anyway.
The BOX pits you against EQUAL TV... what is there to FEAR???
Especially from PANSY ELVES... and you should know those Elves that were able to pimp themselves in Ranked are PANSY ELVES because they had to build themselves in RANKED. Where nobody would play them if they weren't PANSY ELVES.
Your KILLER Bash team ought to rip through them like Claw through AV9. And if YOU will get some freaking Tackle you won't even need the Claw or Mighty Blow.

SO THERE YOU HAVE IT.
Not only why the merger will fix and likely save FUMBBL in North America.
But ALSO the way to fix 3 of the 4 worst things about FUMBBL.
But it makes too much sense to get through the heads of the coaches afraid of PANSY ELVES.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 19:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I half-agree about merging
But man, you sound like a lunatic
RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 20:09 Reply with quote Back to top

There should be one tourney where teams are premade. Then it's really down to skill and luck.
almic85



Joined: May 25, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 20:10 Reply with quote Back to top

@catalyst32, Right so you want both divisions completely merged, with the coach able to pick each game of the the team will be auto scheduled or manually scheduled.

I can see how that could help if the current player base is retained And you gain access to play every coach. But what if the group of Box coaches that see the division as something more than just a fancy autoscheduler? I can see you seem to hate this idea of “box purity”, but to a large number of coaches that is exactly what they want out of Box. If you merge both divisions you run the risk of removing the reason those coaches play games on FUMBBL and will lose coaches from this site.

I don’t really see the same “purity” argument from Ranked coaches, which is why I asked if you just wanted the autoscheduler in Ranked as opposed to merging Ranked and Box.

As a zero sum argument (assuming half of the Box coaches don’t want to merge and stop playing) your player base in ranked would increase by 50% but the FUMBBL player base would decline by 25% (0.5+0.5/2=0.75). Add onto that that even with both types of activation available players would still have to choose which method to use each game and then sit and wait for it to work and (assuming. 50/50 split of chosen schedule type) you would be getting less games than now (0.75/2=0.35).

What I don’t get about the argument for merging the divisions is that it will lead to less coaches and less team availability in the single environment for both manual and auto schedule coaches as coaches will still have to divide and commit to the type of scheduling on a per match basis. The guys that commit to an autoscheduler game aren’t going to be able to accept manual schedules games and vice versa.

Also if you think you have it bad in NA try playing in the Australasian Timezone. The only box activations you get are when the SWL coaches all decide to activate.

Edit: apologies my fat fingers don’t type properly on touch screens.

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