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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
27%
 27%  [ 39 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
25%
 25%  [ 36 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
12%
 12%  [ 17 ]
Stop Complaining.
34%
 34%  [ 49 ]
Total Votes : 141


gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: May 20, 2018 - 22:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
You are not helping, as you say, because you miss about 1/2 of what I say and ignore it.


Maybe he tried to use Pro on it.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 20, 2018 - 22:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Now I know that too much PRo can kill the SERVER.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
poncis13



Joined: Mar 05, 2014

Post   Posted: May 20, 2018 - 23:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I think is nice 7338 Diving tackle, jumpup, legs and wrestle. for 110K
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 21, 2018 - 19:52 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
You are not helping, as you say, because you miss about 1/2 of what I say and ignore it.


Maybe he tried to use Pro on it.



Laughing HAHAHA Good Joke. Very good.

But (to counter the joke) Reading Comprehension is just 1 skill that he NEEDS to use over and over. I have said multiple times that a skill you intend to use multiple times is 1 you do not use Pro. Pro is for when you must make lots of different types of rolls. Not 1 type of roll repeatedly.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 21, 2018 - 22:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I have listened to and understood everything you said. I do not agree. That is different. The reason I didn’t respond to every sentence was that I thought it would seem petty and as if I was combative, I am not. I first raised the point on not everything being understood because you were making statements about my point of view which demonstrated a lack of comprehension of my comments.
To avoid any more unpleasantness I have decided to test your theories. I was about to create a team on Fumbbl and then realised it was not the best test environment as the opposition teams and coaches may vary a lot. It is better I test it on tabletop where I can play one slann team with dodge and one without against the same opposition multiple times. I will play both sides to ensure it is reasonably fair. I will play them at TV 1300 and 1600 against each other and also against dwarves, orcs, humans and high elves as a reasonable test.
This will take a little time but I will report back soon.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 21, 2018 - 22:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Pro is for when you must make lots of different types of rolls.


Not EXACTLY.

PRo is for when NOTHING ELSE works or when wasting a RR would be silly.

Want to counter Bloodlust without using the RR for something later in the turn and you can afford to fail? PRo it.

Want to counter Bonehead? PRo offers the same odds as a LONER RR.

Want to RR those pushes but want to bypass Nuffle's tendency to turn pushes into SKULLS? Use PRo.

Let's look at some numbers.

A 3+ action without PRo succeeds 2 times out of 3. PRo increases it to 78%. If you then RR the PRo roll, you can increase your odds to 83%. That's 5% less than if you use a RR in the first place.

Take two 3+ actions. Suppose you take PRo before RR. Here's what we get:

Code:
Action 3+ - Action 3+
59.259 %
69.136 %


Compare to the same thing, but with a relevant RR skill, say Dodge:

Code:
Dodge 3+ with dodge skill - Action 3+
59.259 %
79.012 %


My numbers may be wrong. No need to spend too much time to counter a mere appeal to ignorance. If my numbers are correct, the flexibility that PRo allegedly provides comes at a cost.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 21, 2018 - 23:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Yah, in my experience, Pro is a poor substitute for Dodge, but a good companion to Leap and Jump Up. I'd consider it on a hitter Slann player, esp as a late skill on a MB or +AG linefrog. I'd also consider it as a late skill on a do-it-all Catcher or Blitzer. So a Pro-oriented (at high TV) Slann team makes at least a little sense. But one that takes it religiously and never takes Dodge, not so much.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 01:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Image

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 05:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
I will continue to play out a winning strategy and I will continue to develop others for other rosters when I get the RARE chance to play at all.

There is no shame in losing more games than winning. But it is difficult to then call the strategy used a winning strategy..

Personally I think Pro has its uses. But it is generally not a patch on Dodge for a team that plays mixed opposition. The point about being able to leap and also use Dodge as well in a turn makes sense.
Pro is good for rerolling bonehead, dauntless, 2 or 3db blocks, hypno gaze, bloodlust etc. Works for some players but unreliable for turn ending rolls. Plus Dodge protects you when hit.

Anyway I think 10k Blitzer reduction would help a bit for resurrection tournaments with few skills such as for tabletop. That tweak may help you get the player/rr etc you want in the build

_________________
“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.”


Last edited by garyt1 on May 22, 2018 - 07:25; edited 1 time in total
gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 05:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
gpope wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
You are not helping, as you say, because you miss about 1/2 of what I say and ignore it.


Maybe he tried to use Pro on it.



Laughing HAHAHA Good Joke. Very good.

But (to counter the joke) Reading Comprehension is just 1 skill that he NEEDS to use over and over. I have said multiple times that a skill you intend to use multiple times is 1 you do not use Pro. Pro is for when you must make lots of different types of rolls. Not 1 type of roll repeatedly.


I like Pro on a designated play maker. If you know you're going to be leaning on one player in particular to roll all the dice, Pro can be decent value for them (especially if you're going to be trying to sack ballcarriers with them, since it gives you a cheap and safe way to attempt rerolls on pushes.) Although in a lot of cases it would probably come later rather than earlier.

But... that only works because you're getting a lot of potential rerolls out of a single skill. Spreading Pro around to a bunch of random schmucks in the hopes that one of them might have a role (roll?) to play on a big turn is incredibly bloaty and unreliable.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 06:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
I have listened to and understood everything you said. I do not agree. That is different. The reason I didn’t respond to every sentence was that I thought it would seem petty and as if I was combative, I am not. I first raised the point on not everything being understood because you were making statements about my point of view which demonstrated a lack of comprehension of my comments.
To avoid any more unpleasantness I have decided to test your theories. I was about to create a team on Fumbbl and then realised it was not the best test environment as the opposition teams and coaches may vary a lot. It is better I test it on tabletop where I can play one slann team with dodge and one without against the same opposition multiple times. I will play both sides to ensure it is reasonably fair. I will play them at TV 1300 and 1600 against each other and also against dwarves, orcs, humans and high elves as a reasonable test.
This will take a little time but I will report back soon.



Yeah. But... what skills will you be taking AND you are still unaware that I DO take Dodge and other RR skills in some limited places.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 07:20 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
Pro is for when you must make lots of different types of rolls.


Not EXACTLY.

PRo is for when NOTHING ELSE works or when wasting a RR would be silly.

Want to counter Bloodlust without using the RR for something later in the turn and you can afford to fail? PRo it.

Want to counter Bonehead? PRo offers the same odds as a LONER RR.

Want to RR those pushes but want to bypass Nuffle's tendency to turn pushes into SKULLS? Use PRo.

Let's look at some numbers.

A 3+ action without PRo succeeds 2 times out of 3. PRo increases it to 78%. If you then RR the PRo roll, you can increase your odds to 83%. That's 5% less than if you use a RR in the first place.

Take two 3+ actions. Suppose you take PRo before RR. Here's what we get:

Code:
Action 3+ - Action 3+
59.259 %
69.136 %


Compare to the same thing, but with a relevant RR skill, say Dodge:

Code:
Dodge 3+ with dodge skill - Action 3+
59.259 %
79.012 %


My numbers may be wrong. No need to spend too much time to counter a mere appeal to ignorance. If my numbers are correct, the flexibility that PRo allegedly provides comes at a cost.



You don't get it at all.

1st you ASSUME that IF I had a TEAM REROLL available that I would use Pro 1st and THEN use a Team Reroll to reroll Pro. That would be incredibly stupid. And I would NEVER do that.

If I would chose Pro 1st it would be at a moment that it would be OK for the turn to end... but it could be AWESOME for it to continue. (Or maybe it would just be smart to save the Team Reroll at the moment.)


2nd... You ASSUME the 2 3+ rolls INCLUDE a DODGE roll (or a roll you already have the appropriate Reroll Skill for). And that is where this approach fails you.

What if there is no DODGE roll involved AT ALL? THAT is the key to the approach.

YOU have spent 20k in TV on Dodge.
I put 20k in TV in Pro.

If we are going to Dodge constantly... that would make me a moron... because clearly I should have ALSO taken Dodge because I am going to be Dodging.

I am NOT necessarily ever going to make a Dodge roll. Sure I might make some Dodges... but it is against my strategy to Dodge. (With the exception that I DO use several RR skills on `1 or 2 of the Catchers.)

I am going to Leap, or Block, or Pick Up the Ball, or Catch the Ball, or Pass the Ball, or Go For It, use it for my Jump Up and Block roll that failed, us it for my failed Dauntless roll AND I MIGHT just use it to Dodge if that is what I MUST DO.

So... when you say 2 3+ rolls and ASSUME a Dodge is going to be 1 of those 2 rolls... you have taken a skill that you are not using. You have 20TV of BLOAT for the task at hand. You have to succeed at BOTH of your 3+ rolls.
I have come into this scenario YOU CREATED of 2 3+ rolls with 20TV of useful Pro as my backup.

Moreover... here you are... all game long looking at your player with Dodge thinking "this skill means he can Dodge"...
only to watch them fall flat on his face when he rolls 1,rr1 1,rr2 2,rr1 and 2,rr2

Guess what my guys falls over on the exact same rolls when he Dodges or any other 3+ rolls
But when your guy tries to Leap, Catch, Pass, Pick Up the Ball... your guy falls on 1 and 2 NO RR.

My guy is ready to go for anything I need him to do at any time.
And there are tons more reasons WHY. But you have to get past the STUPID things you ASSUME are part of the strategy that are not.

The Statistics are NOT the Dice.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 07:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Remember you say you use Pro when it is ok for the turn to end. But then you say you can use it for leap, catch, pass, pick up etc. Yeah you can but it is bad for these rolls to fail. You might be tempted to try them without a team reroll available, and you will often be disappointed if you do that. May be better not to risk the roll unless it is say t16.
As I and others said Pro is generally not for key rolls as it is unreliable. But yeah have it one or two players if you like. Not as a skill for a lot of players instead of a key skill.

_________________
“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.”


Last edited by garyt1 on May 22, 2018 - 07:38; edited 1 time in total
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 07:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
1st you ASSUME that IF I had a TEAM REROLL available that I would use Pro 1st and THEN use a Team Reroll to reroll Pro. That would be incredibly stupid. And I would NEVER do that.


Fair ENOUGH.

Here's what I find with PRo NEVER used before the RR:

Code:
Action 3+ - Action 3+
59.259 %
76.543 %


Without PRo:

Code:
Action 3+ - Action 3+
44.444 %
74.074 %


In plays where a RR is involved, PRo gives you TWO POINT FIVE PERCENT.

The Statistics are Not the Dice INDEED.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 08:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
I have decided to test your theories.It is better I test it on tabletop where I can play one slann team with dodge and one without against the same opposition multiple times.


This is a good idea and a noble endeavour
Would it save time to play dodge-slann vs pro-slann?

Actually wouldn't the answer just come down to how much tackle the opponent has?
if its 11 guys with tackle then dodge is useless so pro would be better
if its 0 guys with tackle then dodge, we'd assume, is better

there's probably not a maths way to find out where the dividing line is, on how much opposing tackle makes the difference

if you test pro-slann vs dodge-slann and they have zero tackle between them, would dodge-slann be expected to win?
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