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Poll
Do You Play In The Blackbox Tournament?
Yes, I've finished my 200 games.
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Yes, I'm on my way to finishing the 200 games.
17%
 17%  [ 11 ]
Yes, but I won't be finishing the 200 games.
51%
 51%  [ 33 ]
No, I've never joined.
26%
 26%  [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 64


Rags



Joined: Nov 09, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 00:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
I am kicking around some ideas for season 2. The biggest question is if old teams should be allowed.

On the con side, people say they don't want new teams to compete against older teams. In my view, new teams would not be competing against older teams. The playing field would be fairly level since new teams would not draw the older teams, and everyone gets the same points for a win no matter what your TV is. In most cases, I don't think Having a high TV team will help you win the tournament.

My one reservation here is sweet spotting. I could choose to play my high TV Nurgle and CDs but my rookie teams will be something like Amazons.

The pro side is that you would not have to start a new team every time you want to compete. It is likely to bring in coaches who feel like they have enough teams already.

The other big question is number of games, number of teams, and season length. The number of teams feels right as it promotes play with a variety of teams. The number of games and length of the season is probably too big. Fewer games over a shorter period is also likely to bring in more interest.

Anyway, there are still a couple of months to kick this around.


I would have thought it'd be new teams each season. But what about implementing season rules from Death Zone season 1?
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 01:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I can't say I'd be interested in starting any competition with guys that already have their Claws, and Guards, and Mighty Blow squads in place before it even starts. The competition wasn't for guys who 'don't' care to make new teams and take on all the 'risks' that low TV teams entails. If was for adventurous guys who want to test their metal in all TV ranges, with different tiers of teams. The influx of fresh teams and new blood was the best part.

Brawls and other stuff exists for those who want to stick to their tried and true squads.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 01:35 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
I can't say I'd be interested in starting any competition with guys that already have their Claws, and Guards, and Mighty Blow squads in place before it even starts. The competition wasn't for guys who 'don't' care to make new teams and take on all the 'risks' that low TV teams entails. If was for adventurous guys who want to test their metal in all TV ranges, with different tiers of teams. The influx of fresh teams and new blood was the best part.

Brawls and other stuff exists for those who want to stick to their tried and true squads.


That is fine but they do a similar thing on Cyanide. There is huge buzz for a few weeks then it runs down. I think they reset after 6 weeks.

If that is what you want to do then you should probably make it quarterly. Coaches will probably still run out of steam or forget about it even at 6 months.

You could have another trophy for existing teams. Wink

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 02:14 Reply with quote Back to top

But.. but.. YOU are the guy who DOES have the trophies for the other guys.. right? Black Box Sprint, n' such. Don't claw guys hunt those trophies?

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 04:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Rags wrote:
Kondor wrote:
I am kicking around some ideas for season 2. The biggest question is if old teams should be allowed.

On the con side, people say they don't want new teams to compete against older teams. In my view, new teams would not be competing against older teams. The playing field would be fairly level since new teams would not draw the older teams, and everyone gets the same points for a win no matter what your TV is. In most cases, I don't think Having a high TV team will help you win the tournament.

My one reservation here is sweet spotting. I could choose to play my high TV Nurgle and CDs but my rookie teams will be something like Amazons.

The pro side is that you would not have to start a new team every time you want to compete. It is likely to bring in coaches who feel like they have enough teams already.

The other big question is number of games, number of teams, and season length. The number of teams feels right as it promotes play with a variety of teams. The number of games and length of the season is probably too big. Fewer games over a shorter period is also likely to bring in more interest.

Anyway, there are still a couple of months to kick this around.


I would have thought it'd be new teams each season. But what about implementing season rules from Death Zone season 1?


No. These are still box teams, they can still play anyone after they are 31+.


If people want to play old teams, they can play them. They just won't be in the trophy - same as all of us who decided we'd rather just keep playing what we had than grind out 200 games on new rosters.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 05:10 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Rags wrote:
Kondor wrote:
I am kicking around some ideas for season 2. The biggest question is if old teams should be allowed.

On the con side, people say they don't want new teams to compete against older teams. In my view, new teams would not be competing against older teams. The playing field would be fairly level since new teams would not draw the older teams, and everyone gets the same points for a win no matter what your TV is. In most cases, I don't think Having a high TV team will help you win the tournament.

My one reservation here is sweet spotting. I could choose to play my high TV Nurgle and CDs but my rookie teams will be something like Amazons.

The pro side is that you would not have to start a new team every time you want to compete. It is likely to bring in coaches who feel like they have enough teams already.

The other big question is number of games, number of teams, and season length. The number of teams feels right as it promotes play with a variety of teams. The number of games and length of the season is probably too big. Fewer games over a shorter period is also likely to bring in more interest.

Anyway, there are still a couple of months to kick this around.


I would have thought it'd be new teams each season. But what about implementing season rules from Death Zone season 1?


No. These are still box teams, they can still play anyone after they are 31+.


If people want to play old teams, they can play them. They just won't be in the trophy - same as all of us who decided we'd rather just keep playing what we had than grind out 200 games on new rosters.


So AD, why not let old teams into the new season? You will still get diversity of races just not all of them at low TV. Where would the old team advantage be in this format?
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 05:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Rags wrote:
Kondor wrote:
I am kicking around some ideas for season 2. The biggest question is if old teams should be allowed.

On the con side, people say they don't want new teams to compete against older teams. In my view, new teams would not be competing against older teams. The playing field would be fairly level since new teams would not draw the older teams, and everyone gets the same points for a win no matter what your TV is. In most cases, I don't think Having a high TV team will help you win the tournament.

My one reservation here is sweet spotting. I could choose to play my high TV Nurgle and CDs but my rookie teams will be something like Amazons.

The pro side is that you would not have to start a new team every time you want to compete. It is likely to bring in coaches who feel like they have enough teams already.

The other big question is number of games, number of teams, and season length. The number of teams feels right as it promotes play with a variety of teams. The number of games and length of the season is probably too big. Fewer games over a shorter period is also likely to bring in more interest.

Anyway, there are still a couple of months to kick this around.


I would have thought it'd be new teams each season. But what about implementing season rules from Death Zone season 1?


No. These are still box teams, they can still play anyone after they are 31+.


If people want to play old teams, they can play them. They just won't be in the trophy - same as all of us who decided we'd rather just keep playing what we had than grind out 200 games on new rosters.


So AD, why not let old teams into the new season? You will still get diversity of races just not all of them at low TV. Where would the old team advantage be in this format?



The burden isn't on me to tell you why not, it's on you to make a compelling case for.

But considering a number of people taking part in the box trophy were annoyed at having to play vs teams that weren't involved (and were usually older), it would suggest allowing old teams to enter would fly in the face of good sportmanship.

Especially since an older team has had multiple opportunities to trim the fat, allocate spp on particular players, and most of all, has not necessarily being playing games where points must be accrued - and so has had multiple opportunities to attain "garbage time" SPP or simply protect players if the coach so wishes.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 06:31 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="ArrestedDevelopment"]
Kondor wrote:



The burden isn't on me to tell you why not, it's on you to make a compelling case for.

But considering a number of people taking part in the box trophy were annoyed at having to play vs teams that weren't involved (and were usually older), it would suggest allowing old teams to enter would fly in the face of good sportmanship.

Especially since an older team has had multiple opportunities to trim the fat, allocate spp on particular players, and most of all, has not necessarily being playing games where points must be accrued - and so has had multiple opportunities to attain "garbage time" SPP or simply protect players if the coach so wishes.


Actually, this is not the case. Jake Steel has disappeared. Koadah and I are the ones who picked this up when he disappeared. Therefore, it is up to us to listen to the group and use our best judgements to determine if there should be changes to season 2.

Obviously, if Christer is interested in this his voice will be law. Honestly, since Koadah has more experience here than I do, I will defer to him entirely. If neither of them want to be involved, I will act as commissioner and make the final decision.

I want to point out that I am not making any arguments one way or another. I am simply listening to suggestions I have received and taking them into consideration.

Having said that, I have not heard from anyone who was unhappy that they had to play people not participating in the tournament much less several participants. If that is the case, I would ask people to contact Koadah or myself so we can hear your feedback.

Additionally, since you did not participate in the current format, I would be more interested in knowing what could persuade you to join. If you do not plan on joining in any case, your opinion is completely irrelevant to the conversation.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 08:42 Reply with quote Back to top

The drawback of locking teams into only facing other teams in the trophy hunt is the possibility of games simply not being made.

I already feel guilty activating teams that are up 750 TV or more in Box but for better or worse it makes games happen. And bar tourneys they wouldnt get games without activating and at least providing opportunities for at least 2 other coaches to throw down.

I think Im misreading the idea. I dont see any issue with only new teams in the trophy hunt. Old teams have tourneys to build and trim for. Id love for quarterly minors to happen again. Ohhhhh Throweck...
datom



Joined: Mar 22, 2017

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 09:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd say no to old teams.

Part of the fun of it was not just that so many games were firing in the early two months, but that so many were firing with small TV gaps - because people were mostly launching teams with c.20 or less games played.

Moreover a significant component on the points is for the 'race trophy'. Who would enter rookie Chaos when it's clear that developed Chaos has a much better shot at that?

Finally, the trophy did a lot to lift misconceptions of the box as huge claw teams killing your favourite low-tv pixels. Tempting new players to a trophy only for them to experience that seems counter-productive.

Oh, one other thing from me - 1 more team in Tier 3 (Slann?). That way you enable the 3-3-1-1-1 build, just another option beyond the 3-3-3-0-0, 3-3-2-1-0, 3-2-2-2-0 and 3-2-2-1-1.

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 10:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I've both enjoyed and endured it. I chose in haste when it looked like 10 or 20 coaches might be into it, and regretted at leisure.

Would I do it again?
Yes, probably.

But if older, established teams were allowed in, I wouldn't bother.

Also I liked the 40 games mark for teams, it meant you HAD to keep going, but wow did it penalise bad starts, and bad middles, and bad ends. And to me that felt part of the point. I know its a huge commitment, and maybe 4 x 25 games over 6 months would work as well. but 5 x 40 games is and was epic. A real commitment. And far longer than the average team is ever played.

I don't know what if anything I'd change about the tiers. They felt about right I reckon.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 11:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I’ve not really been involved (eight whole games played here!), but I think this is a lovely thing. It reminds me of when CRP first came to the site and was only available in B; it was a lovely environment before people remembered this was the internet and they could easily work out how to farm wins.

For me:

- Fresh teams is a must
- 200 games is a lot for most FUMBBLers, I think. Perhaps most points after 200 games should be the gold medal we all strive for, but an official silver for best points / game having played a minimum of 15 with each team would be a nice thing
- Perhaps controversial, but I don’t think allowing one substitution would break anything. If I’m playing Lizards and 4 Saurus die in game one thanks to hilarious Blood Bowl incidents, that team is going in the bin (and with it, my participation). I’m fully behind encouraging coaches to stay the course, but being obliterated early and having to stick with a gimped team is no fun
- The tiers are OK, but if you feel there is a route of least resistance developing where some middling teams > big boys and Stunties, you could always give Stunties more points. Points * 1.2, or whatever is appropriate. Not sure this is necessary, as theoretically I don’t actually agree with the conclusion middling is better (emphasis on theoretically)

Cheers!

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 11:31 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
But.. but.. YOU are the guy who DOES have the trophies for the other guys.. right? Black Box Sprint, n' such. Don't claw guys hunt those trophies?


Off-site trophies can't compete with on-site trophies. Wink

So, that is suspended for now after being taken down for GPDR.

If the point or even part of the point is to get more coaches playing Box then why not have a version for existing teams? Something for people who don't want to be going back to low TV.

If the number of games is cut to 30 then all the new teams will have rookie protection for the whole season. Admittedly there mare may be a few fewer teams in the 'new teams' pool.

Quote:
I know its a huge commitment, and maybe 4 x 25 games over 6 months would work as well. but 5 x 40 games is and was epic. A real commitment. And far longer than the average team is ever played.


I think that the average team used to play fewer than 10 games. An 'existing teams' trophy might no have much impact on the 'new teams' trophy at all.

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kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 14:11 Reply with quote Back to top

datom wrote:
Oh, one other thing from me - 1 more team in Tier 3 (Slann?). That way you enable the 3-3-1-1-1 build, just another option beyond the 3-3-3-0-0, 3-3-2-1-0, 3-2-2-2-0 and 3-2-2-1-1.


1) "3-3-3-0-0" wasn't allowed at least on season 1 since you only could pick 2 teams from top tier

2) I do like us trying to figure tiers. I think season 1 tiers came to be mostly by how much others have played the teams. Now we can see which teams in each tier were picked a lot and which were avoided and maybe try to adjust a bit to give more variation in box.

Personally i have loved to see more stunties, more high elves, more khemri and more vampires. But then again are those teams now overpresented a bit too?

I dunno if the goal is to make less played teams more played, keep box more active than it was before box trophy run or if it's just to encourage to play in new competitive format - i feel like this tier-question is one thing we need to tackle in one way or another and the angle of that approach should come from the question "what is the point".
datom



Joined: Mar 22, 2017

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 14:18 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:


If the point or even part of the point is to get more coaches playing Box then why not have a version for existing teams? Something for people who don't want to be going back to low TV.


This is absolutely true. However, the flip-side of it is this - even a small fracturing of the box community into one group that have teams at high tv they want to play, and one group that have rookie protection on all teams could play havoc with draws. How many draws scrape in with 4 coaches? If you ask coaches to commit to two massive slogs, one at high tv, one at low tv, even the most committed could only do one, and neither the twain shall meet with rookie protection.

For those that wish to play high tv, there will always be the core of historic, high tv etc to activate against. And the low tv tourney teams will eventually become high tv anyway.

Or maybe not, I dunno. Might work fine!

kummo wrote:

1) "3-3-3-0-0" wasn't allowed at least on season 1 since you only could pick 2 teams from top tier


Oops. Sorry!

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