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Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 14:32 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
BB is not just NAF tournament play, though.


I know, and I think I was Pretty clear about my perspective. To me bloodbowl is almost exclusively NAF style. That is no secret. But what is true for NAF Style is also mostly true low TV. Smile
Coffee_Monster



Joined: Aug 01, 2019

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 14:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Hrm, Underworld can get Hakflem now, no new stars.

Underworld Gutter runner + 2 stars Hakflem and Skitter?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 14:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I don't imply that NAF coaches must have bad rosters or be punished for playing NAF-style, but non-NAF coaches should not have crappy rosters just because they could break NAF tournaments.
Best thing would be having 2 different rulesets with different starting rosters:
1 set of rosters specifically developed for NAF resurrection tournaments, another one for progression leagues.
Smile
spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 15:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess they added loner to the dwarfs as animosity wasn't really going to be much of a problem for most of their players. Only the dwarf blitzer and runner were likely to ever touch the ball.

Human blitzers have always been overpriced and catchers are pretty mediocre and one of the biggest weaknesses of humans was the lack of guard at higher TV. So I could see how adding dwarfs was quite a boost. That does give some justification for loner on the dwarfs. I could see a fluff justification as the stubborn Dwarfs don't want to follow the tactics of a mostly human team.

Flings with loner are just awful though as they were already a weak choice on a team with an option for the human thrower/catch and dwarf runner. They'd only have been added for TTM fun.

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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

...They could have removed the Dwarf Runner (redundant with the Human Thrower)...


Coffee_Monster wrote:
...dwarf runner is utterly pointless...


The single reason I could come up with for the existence of a dwarf runner was so you could get sure hands for a game when your thrower was mng or if for some reason the environment you were playing in meant you absolutely needed a backup sure hands rostered
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 18:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Tripleskull wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
BB is not just NAF tournament play, though.


I know, and I think I was Pretty clear about my perspective. To me bloodbowl is almost exclusively NAF style. That is no secret. But what is true for NAF Style is also mostly true low TV. Smile


I wouldn't say that is exactly true. Leagues and fresh ranked/box teams don't always have the benefit of picking their skills or getting whatever star they want whenever they want. I've used Roxanna more times in 9 NAF games than I have in all my league, ranked, and box games combined
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 20:18 Reply with quote Back to top

yeah being able to roster stars, and choose skills all at once, really changes what options you have available. NAF is not overly similar to low tv play in many respects. (Although obviously this can change from tournament to tournament)
Coffee_Monster



Joined: Aug 01, 2019

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 20:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Yea apologies if I’m over looking different formats, my opinions are NAF bias as that is mostly what I play.

I don’t see Oldworld working well in any other system.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2020 - 22:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree that there are many differences between NAF style and low TV league play. What I meant to say was that the power balance is quite similar Even if there are significant exceptions and that OWA would be in about the same spot in both - with and without Loner. Without Loner it would be top of tier 1. With loner it is most likely somewhere in the middle?
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 01:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Top of Tier 1? Ag3 Passes and Catches?

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Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 09:42 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
Top of Tier 1? Ag3 Passes and Catches?


Why would You want to pass or catch?

Plenty of block, tackle, frenzy, Enough speed and agility and Lots of S-accces is the reason Why This team needs loner.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 10:28
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Tripleskull wrote:
The_Murker wrote:
Top of Tier 1? Ag3 Passes and Catches?


Why would You want to pass or catch?

Plenty of block, tackle, frenzy, Enough speed and agility and Lots of S-accces is the reason Why This team needs loner.


I don’t actually think that holds up to much scrutiny. If you compare the roster player for player with the Human team, it comes out slightly more favourable, but not by much.

Let’s look at the dwarves. The thrower for runner swap is a pretty Neutral change, so you’re looking at losing 3 blitzers and replacing them with 2 Longbeards, a Slayer and a Dwarf Blitzer. In essence, you gain 1 player with Block and S access. The penalty for this is you’re trading high Ma for Av. There’s a decent argument to me made that this crippled utility, and that the OWA team would be too slow while also not bash enough to compensate but that would need to be tested. I think, sans any testing data, we could put this down as a marginal gain.

The other change is losing Catchers for Halflings. These players are in no way comparable in their utility and function on the team. Halflings bring 2 things to the table: being thrown and being cheap. Human catchers, though not always popular, bring a lot of pace and utility to a human team.

They also have 70k re-rolls.

That doesn’t to me seem like a team so OP it needs crippling with Loner on half the team. I think it’d be strong, but not top tier. I don’t even think it’d be better than Orcs, who have a similar lineup. They have 8 players with S access. Chaos, dwarves etc have a full lineup with it. I don’t see anyone arguing those teams need to be balanced by all being Loners. On top of which, even if a team did need to be balanced, this is just a terrible way to do it.

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Coffee_Monster



Joined: Aug 01, 2019

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 12:41 Reply with quote Back to top

More I look at them, the more I just see a stunty killer team, starts with tackle, has high AV to tank big guys/weapons, and still has the mobility to out manoeuvre.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 16:35 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
Tripleskull wrote:
The_Murker wrote:
Top of Tier 1? Ag3 Passes and Catches?


Why would You want to pass or catch?

Plenty of block, tackle, frenzy, Enough speed and agility and Lots of S-accces is the reason Why This team needs loner.


I don’t actually think that holds up to much scrutiny. If you compare the roster player for player with the Human team, it comes out slightly more favourable, but not by much.


Assuming that we are now discussing NAF style, I’ll elaborate a little.

Let’s assume an old school no tiers 6 skills meta for arguments sake since tiers messes with power levels for obvious reasons.

I think the comparison to humans is the most relevant even if I think OWA will play more like undead in reality. And the similarities with undead also hints at the problem with the team. A great mix of players with combined abilities for any task.

Comprared to humans:
Seeing more than one catcher or thrower on a human team is really rare so hardly a loss. The gain of a halflings is mainly a thing because it helps you afford Karla or other stuff.

With a thrower, a catcher and a blitzer you have enough speed to manage, so the loss of three blitzers is very manageable. To compensate you get two great players with block and tackle, one great player with block and frenzy and on great player that is a bit slow, but since you have other fast players the speed is net a problem. These players are all cheaper than the human blitzer - except the slayer. And both the LBs and the slayer are better value than a regular blitzer would have been.
If you find room for both leader And a block thrower you can include the runner, but I guess that depends on skills etc.

To sum up You have all the skills you need (sure hands, block, tackle and frenzy) and more besides Guard and mighty blow. The six skills could be something Like leader, MB, block, and 3 guards.

Loner probably takes them some way down the ranks, but I still think they are playable and generally underrated.

Orcs are massively overrated in tournament play. They are a bad team because they are slow and there are plenty of stats that show this. Give them a human thrower and a catcher and they would go through the roof. Same for dwarfs, even if they are somewhat better than orcs to begin with.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 17:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Coffee_Monster wrote:
More I look at them, the more I just see a stunty killer team, starts with tackle, has high AV to tank big guys/weapons, and still has the mobility to out manoeuvre.


At least it is also a wood elf killer team
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