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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 11:02
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I haven’t seen anything yet on the random skill rolls, only the random stat roll. I’m assuming you get to pick category but I don’t know if there’s weighting or anything

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Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 11:04 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
I haven’t seen anything yet on the random skill rolls, only the random stat roll. I’m assuming you get to pick category but I don’t know if there’s weighting or anything


You choose a category. Each category has 12 skills. You roll d6 1-3 is first half 4-6 is second half. Then roll again to assign skill.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 13:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Sambre wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
In my opinion is very simple and logical:

- normal team plays vs normal team with Gamefinder;
- hardcore team plays vs hardcore teams with scheduler.

My opinion is, in my mind, also quite simple and logical:
- only normal teams can play with Gamefinder;
- only hardcore teams can participate to BBT
- both normal and hardcore team can play with Scheduler
- normal can only play normal, hardcore only play hardcore with the Scheduler.

Even better idea: Ranked teams are moved to either League division or scheduler-only division (their coaches choose where to migrate, but once they have decided, they can't go back).
Box teams stay in scheduler-only division.
This would not split the userbase, but would increase it (thus improving the chance of finding a MM game with scheduler), so it's more logical.
Scheduler ensures there is no picking, so it should be the only way to arrange competitive games.

About normal being able to play only vs normal, and hardcore vs hardcore: would split the userbase, not a good idea.
The good idea is increasing a lot the population of TV MM division, so the scheduler (which is the best way to arrange games) can work well.
When there was the outbreak peak, Box was flooded by new coaches, and you could find a game every draw.

If people want to play with Gamefinder, they can do it in League division, without earning CR, though.
I'm fine with that.
steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 13:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Matt, you (and others) keep linking competitive games to box. Could you define what competitive games mean to you?

To me a competitive game is one with two evenly matched teams and coaches playing to win.
steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 13:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Matt, you (and others) keep linking competitive games to box. Could you define what competitive games mean to you?

To me a competitive game is one with two evenly matched teams and coaches playing to win.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 13:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Competitive means that there is no possibility of picking teams and opponents.
Scheduler makes that impossible.
steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

So two 160 CR coaches with equal teams is not competitive if they decide to play each other but a 180 CR coach min maxed team vs a 140 CR coach stunts team is competitive if in Box? That doesn't seem right to me.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 14:09 Reply with quote Back to top

In my experience, Ranked matches tend to have a better coach/team vs a worse coach/team, I noticed it by just checking the list of Ranked games, you can do it and see it.
Moreover, if you check a coach win rate in Ranked and in Box, you will notice that most of times, the win rate in Ranked is higher than in Box (talking about win rates of the same coach in the 2 divisions), because there is no picking, so games are harder and the win rate is worse in Box (so, Box is more competitive, due to not being able to pick opponents, it's the picking the factor making the win rate difference).

Sure, in Box can happen the odd mismatch, but I talked about the long run: in Ranked, if a coach wants, can play ONLY games where he has a good chance to win, in Box even a minmax team will face the bad match-up from time to time, it could be a TV gap or facing a better team and a better opponent.
I talked about long run, not a single game.
If you think that Box is easier, then play in Box some games (as many as Ranked games you played) and compare the win rates.
You will discover that your will rate will be worse in the Box.
There is a Ranked coach with 87% win rate, this is way above the win rate he has in the Box, 54%.
I let you guess the reason of such win rate difference.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 14:36 Reply with quote Back to top

steinerp wrote:
Matt, you (and others) keep linking competitive games to box. Could you define what competitive games mean to you?

To me a competitive game is one with two evenly matched teams and coaches playing to win.


Some might think that "Competitive" means that the fish cannot swim away from the sharks Twisted Evil

I only did the last 10 games as my scripts don't track CR and I had to do it manually. So yes, it's a very tiny sample. But...

172.71 vs 140.48
173.82 vs 151.86
173.52 va 151.93
172.77 vs 166.46
172.69 vs 146.17
172.71 vs 168.73
172.38 vs 151.41
172.19 vs 147.39
171.67 vs 155.29
171.29 vs 151.89

Only two out of the last ten over 160?

It is true. You can only play who is put in front of you. But from a very quick, preliminary glance, it seems that the sharks are feasting. Wink

I leave gathering a larger dataset as an exercise for the reader. Mr. Green

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Just to confirm Koadah, thats a list of box games correct? And yeah, i'd agree that isn't competitive.
steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 15:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure what those numbers are as they don't look to be the last 10 games in gamefinder as I doubt that every game involved a highly ranked coach.

I'm having a little trouble with the API but I pulled the last 100 or so games off the website and compared the scores as I believe that is the best indicator of if the game is competitive or not. Here are my results(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p28Gm5wwmlUqZl5cEC8BN4qtzz-OtkanoA0UeFtsCsg/edit?usp=sharing)

<1 score game <2 score game <3 Score game
Ranked 76% 92% 96%
Box 59% 84% 97%
League 72% 94% 97%

I would consider any game that can have the results be flipped in the final turn to be competitive (aka column 1) but I wouldn't argue with someone that wanted all 2 score games to be considered competitive as well.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 15:10 Reply with quote Back to top

The difference is: if you play vs a noob in Box, you didn't choose him for sure, if you play vs a noob in Ranked, you could have picked him.
And anyway, if you find a noob in Box, the anti-picking system which is used for Ranked is used for Box too (even if you can't pick) and defeating a noob will not give you many CR points, consider that.
Sure, even in Ranked a noob will not give you many CR points, but you can at least pick the match-up, for example in Box you could face a noob with Dwarfs and you could have Amazons, while in Ranked you can decide not to play a noob with Dwarfs if you have Amazons.
As an aside, I don't like to play vs low CR coaches in Box, if you are implying that, koadah, because I play for the CR (competitively means that too) and if I win vs a noob I don't earn lot of CR, while I have lot to lose in case of defeat (or some in tie). It's not very advantageous to me, lot to lose, little or nothing to gain. I could show you games where I earned 0 CR even when winning, a waste of time in my book.
I like to play vs Super Stars and Legends whenever possible, without picking/being picked.
If it were possible due to larger userbase, I would play in a MM division where a certain minimum CR is required (from Star to Legend, ideally), not my fault if the site population can't support it.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 10, 2020 - 15:26; edited 6 times in total
Welsh_Cthulu



Joined: Aug 06, 2020

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 15:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
Some of the non-rulebook rosters will very likely be in a "Teams of Legend" PDF released at the time of the rulebook. The Competitive division will support those too. This very likely means Slann are dead, because there will be no official updated roster for them. We'll see though.


Excellent! Well let's hope we can all play our R and B teams to our blackened hearts content.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 15:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Just to confirm Koadah, thats a list of box games correct? And yeah, i'd agree that isn't competitive.


I think that you can probably guess where I got them and check for yourself. If the next 10 or 20 are completely different, I'll take it all back. Wink

He did manage to lose a couple of games soon after. He has actually lost three out of the last thirty

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2020 - 15:25 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think CR is competitive, Box Trophy seems to be!

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