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ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 15:54 Reply with quote Back to top

In the SWL, we have been playing with Seasons for a far while. We play the BB2016 rules with "wanting to retire" etc but the cap for teams is individually calculated with a formula for wins, TD's and Casualties.

I am a bit lost with BB2020, is the Cap universal? Why isnt there a formula driven cap based on a team's performance in their previous season?

So, if you go 15-0 in a [C] division season, then your cap would be higher than the guy who goes 0-15?

But it seems 2020 is about everyone is at the same? (and the proposal is 1350).
Steallan



Joined: Jun 16, 2020

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 15:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:

If you kept Studman Fourskill who has Advancements gained over his last 5 seasons, and built a rookie squad around him, you'd start the new season at 1200k TV


haha, old Studman, what a beast

You would probably keep only players who started rookies from the season before. Could get a Studman Fourskill, and HotChops QuadRolls each season, maybe even Legendgirl QuatreIncrease, and then 20k to keep each one.

Keeping someone into their 3rd season, hella % of your cap, but that's the 'by design' trade off.

Oh what would be the best cap value.....hummmm
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Another 2 numbers that are important:

Gold budget for rebuy
TV value afterwards

The first one is affected by your performance + treasury + basic 1000k, yes but has a official rulebook suggestion of being capped to 1300
The second one is more important for performance (especially in league)

The difference comes from gold lost to Agent Fees for old players

A TV cap post redraft, is an option instead?
It lets you keep Studman Fourskill if you want without taking a TV penalty. But eventually you won't have the gold to pay the Agent.


Last edited by Sp00keh on Aug 12, 2020 - 17:41; edited 1 time in total
Uber



Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:09 Reply with quote Back to top

What is the downside of making seasons entirely optional? I think Majors should be reserved for re-drafted teams, but why not let people outside of that manage their team as they see fit?

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Uber wrote:
What is the downside of making seasons entirely optional? I think Majors should be reserved for re-drafted teams, but why not let people outside of that manage their team as they see fit?



Christer's already addressed this in his blog, see page 1

But in summary
Several, massive changes
If you don't have seasons you can roll and reroll Random skills for half price, and keep recycling until you get all the guys fully skilled for half price

And then you can also buy specific skills and stats you want on top

Attrition is now much lower

So it'd be possible to build hideous, massive, game-balance-breaking teams given enough time.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:27
FUMBBL Staff
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A few more suggestions for the melting pot. Feel free to exclaim as brilliant or decry as ridiculous, as appropriate:

1) Make Competitive division a fresh start
This is likely the most contentious suggestion, but I think could be best overall for the health of Fumbbl and it's various divisions. Proposal would be to move all current R and B teams to L, and start C again from scratch. It removes the headache of painful cutting down of beloved teams, and all coaches creating teams for the new C division know what they're in for.

2) Treasury used for agents fees only
One of the main causes of the rebuy balance issue is that treasury ends up being such a large proportion of the overall amount. If the treasury was only allowed to be used for agent's fees it still has a purpose and there's still a need to build it up to keep older players, but the overall TV of the cut is unaffected.

3) Have a short season with no cap
Having a shorter season controls TV by itself, while keeping winning and losing having some value. A 10 game season at 20k/game 20k/win 10k/draw gives a rebuy value of between 1200TV and 1400TV. This is close variance, but still those wins feel valuable. (Not including treasury as above)

4) Exclusively Scheduler for Competitive division
Ok, maybe this is the most controversial one. And it may not be necessary. The idea is that with a 10 game season people may be more inclined to 'pick' themselves an easy run.


I think the above taken as a package (ok, excepting 4 probably) would give a good healthy Competitive scene. Majors would be entered on the back of 10 game runs and should see closer competition. It's much easier for casual or busy coaches to complete a 10 game season than the current 'Bloat High TV' meta but you don't have to feel like you're getting chopped by an artificial cap.

I'd also think the concept of Seasons could add a lot to the competitive division in terms of persistent competitions (like Box trophy, but different) and rewards. And from a fluff perspective, as I've mentioned before, the ability to look back over previous season's squads/results/records/trophies etc. would be great.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 17:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I've suggested 1 & 4 myself on discord a number of times over the last few months. My actual real opposition to bb2016 seasons on fumbbl was putting them in R/B. Scrapping the old divs, salting the earth and giving everyone a fresh start is fine by me.

2&3 I don't fancy at all.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd want to transfer teams over even if it's just a fresh rebuy
I want to keep the name
And the history, the games played etc. Though that should possibly be put into a separate area, pre and post the transfer
Uber



Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 18:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:

If you don't have seasons you can roll and reroll Random skills for half price, and keep recycling until you get all the guys fully skilled for half price


I find this to be a very stupid game to play. Makes no sense that two identical players would have different TV because one of them is randomly generated.

I don't see myself picking many random skills either, like if you manage to get some points on a saurus, isn't block just way better than any other choice? I'll pick that block saurus over your shadowing, multiple block guy every day.

A lot of people enjoy long term development of teams, which is what FUMBBL has been all about from the beginning. To cut that entirely from the main divisions seems like very blunt measure. But I get that everything ties in together.

What I'm hoping for is some kind of middle ground. The SWL system sounds way more interesting for example. Maybe we could have different tiers we could pick from.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 18:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Yea it's stupid in unlimited play

With seasons tho it makes tough decision about, do I take a quick random now or wait and choose what I actually want
Under the time pressure of the impending redraft

A chosen skill also means you have to pay more to redraft them, each future season

But, because seasons are fairly short and you won't keep players for many seasons, if you go with Random skills then you will be carrying a lot of junk
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 19:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Seasons is clearly designed for either leagues with playoffs/finals every year/league period or for people who want to build a team for a little while with a tournament in mind.

So that is not catering to a large chunk of people playing in open play on FUMBBL.

Seasons with a low rebuy like 1250-1350 and "just" 15 games effectively ends team building and most of the incentive to fluff players/teams and keep an interest in a team for a long time. It is hard to see how people can dispute that. As a few have mentioned in the last few pages. Yes you can built to a higher tv but then you soon have to rebuy. Probably some senior members in GW wouldn't care less if one of FUMBBL's main advantage over standard leagues ended.

I do most of my team building/long term play in Box, but many of the people in to having long term teams with some background are in Ranked. It is part of the point of the division. The whole advantage of fumbbl having this open, perpetual environment is lost when people can't nurture their teams. Ok, there are some like Malmir partly concerned with losing key stat freaks etc. But there are also a lot of coaches who have used a team for a long time, perhaps not that frequently but they keep coming back to a few key teams they like. Perhaps writing some bio for key players. Do we really want to decimate teams like the Blood Sea Buccaneers, or the old Halfling teams etc.
Yes you can compare season records of a team like is done in real world spots. But in real world sports good (and even not so good) players may be around for several seasons in a franchise.
There are also quite a lot of coaches who play perhaps 10 matches with a team and then start another. I'm not sure we want to reduce their ambition to play a team longer even further. If you know oh I could play a few more games at some point but then I have to rebuy again..

I am massively opposed to the suggestion of starting all from scratch in Competitive. Talk about a way to antagonize people. Awful. Then you are really putting those legendary teams on the scrapheap.
Moving teams to league isn't a great option as there isn't many people using gamefinder in league, and you just divide people again.

If correct AD's mention of first cap on transition to new "Competitive" division being 1750tv would at least help with the transition. It gives the old timers a bit more time with most of their team, and more time to come to terms with the change. Though you may need a rule on not having grandfathered teams in (most) tournaments.

I do think as a few suggested initially starting with a higher tv cap rule in seasons is a good idea. If you start with a low cap and then increase rebuy cap months later the damage has already been done in many peoples eyes. Whereas stat with a mid tv cap and at least some key players can be kept. Can be harsher later if that makes sense. I can see player recycling can be an issue if you don't have any rebuy process.

I suppose we would be looking at keeping two superstars in a rebuy team for a couple of seasons. Though some like ogres will likely be nearer the 1250tv end than 1350.

I suppose one skill players will only be kept if they have something key like block, or sure hands on a carrier.

A separate point, but it seems seasons under 20 games mean a significant change to the Box trophy.

My other hope is that tweaks to game points like the kickoff table will at least improve the one-off match experience.
Having gamefinder along with scheduler options is good.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 19:21 Reply with quote Back to top

A lot of good points and yes it doesn't fit fumbbl but we can't not do it without also not changing those skillup rules etc and getting radically different

We can pull some levers around values and caps


What do u think of my previous suggestion to uncap gold budget and instead cap the post redraft TV value?

So that you can retain key players for longer, until you can no longer afford the Agent Fee
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, the levers are important!
I'm not sure of the implications of the different way of capping. Sounds like it helps you to keep some of those +20k players if you have done well/have large treasury.
In general I prefer higher caps! Including a bit better for low end.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 19:50
FUMBBL Staff
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ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
I've suggested 1 & 4 myself on discord a number of times over the last few months. My actual real opposition to bb2016 seasons on fumbbl was putting them in R/B. Scrapping the old divs, salting the earth and giving everyone a fresh start is fine by me.

2&3 I don't fancy at all.


That’s fair enough, but I’d be interested to know why?

The idea behind 2) is that it would keep TV managed while also allowing teams to carry over some players for several seasons which Is one of the problems people seem to have with seasons.

3) is to give a bit of diversity between good and bad seasons, but not enough to be oppressive.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 19:52 Reply with quote Back to top

The whole point of the rules is to stop you retaining key players. You see "key player" on your newly trimmed team, others see "farmed superstar who makes a minmax team function". Each time you retain a key player your treasury cost goes up but eventual TV after rebuy goes down. All you in effect would do is create bigger mismatches, push a minmax meta harder than the actual rules (while it will push TV down, most teams will not be keep 4+ skill players on retainers for multiple seasons) and create an even more hostile environment for new teams.

The elephant in the room that no one is addressing when they talk about legendary teams, or old teams, or big teams is that these team's existence puts people off playing in tournaments, spinning in box etc. They are barriers to entrance. Old teams sitting parked indefinitely, playing major after major, xfl after xfl, minor after minor etc, and rarely if ever actually being cut down or trimmed significantly in any way. They might be celebrated by their coaches, or even the site, but their very presence and continued participation isn't actually healthy.

Fluff teams who are making a story of a franchise are almost completely unaffected by this - seasons render a team more immortal than any other rule before.

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