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Stonetroll



Joined: Jun 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2012 - 14:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Agree with goo here, caps brought an element of danger to the whole division structure. Fighting to stay up to win shiny dice is one thing, fighting to avoid having to fire your beloved players is even more exciting.

One of the main points of leagues is the sense of continuity, and although inducements work for the one game pretty decently, they take away from the "coaching experience" as goo said.
blader4411



Joined: Oct 18, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2012 - 14:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Right now though we get stupid teams, like Jullutin's 1990k Amazons in the Regionals.

-Blader
plaguey



Joined: Sep 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2012 - 14:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Only my first season here so I knew it was going to be tough having gone from 1 game played in WIL Fringe straight into the Regionals.
So far although I've enjoyed it, I've found like Goo my players either don't last long enough to get skills or I'm having large inducements (think my next game I get 600k), which is fun but takes away some of the enjoyment of playing similar teams where I have a chance of winning or at least skilling my players.

Only my first season though and I'm looking forward to many more, hopefully I'll get a team that can compete.
DaCoach



Joined: Jul 22, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2012 - 14:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Agree with Pgoo - Trimming is a part of a life in a league like this, and adds to the history and fluff of the team.
Playing in this season as newly relegated in OBBA Conf. Two, giving away 200-500K inducements away has not been fun either - all the time facing saws and wizzies.
Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2012 - 15:06 Reply with quote Back to top

TV Caps... Not a fan of this... If you're keen to play matches against equal teams, then surely [B]ox is for you...

I fear what you propose may turn [L]eagues (and not just the WIL) into "just another Blackbox"

Purplegoo wrote:
To use the example of my current Khemri team, ~snip~ Iím not getting much joy out of it.
I'll be honest, this statement makes sense without the discussion of TR caps. In CRP, Khemri are very dour... This could be clouding you view...

Purplegoo wrote:
As the season progresses, Iím losing Skeletons at the rate of one every game and a half, and when a TG bites it, my team really is in the crapper.
Purplegoo wrote:
The ongoing Chainsaws and other bits donít do much to help me build a team.
Depends on if you want to feel connected more than than winning, the option is there... Perhaps Team Re-Rolls, + Igor might be a better option than Hack n Slash + Wizard? Also - you haven't actually lost one a TG yet. This is because they are ST5, AV9 and have 3 other TG's to protect them... I also worry about the conclusions that you have drawn after playing only 5 games with this team...

Purplegoo wrote:
The more rubbish teams are always going to be reliant on the gimmicks to see them through.
This is intentional, they're meant to be like this... They're only so many ways to develop a Halfling Team. Making everyone Min/Max is just going to hurt them. It will drive people to play the "same old stuff"...

Take my team for example... they have played 17 games (2 and a bit seasons) and sit at 2130. If I had to make an 1800 cap, I'd have to lose 3 positionals and drop to 11 players (such a ripe target for a killing machine team which sits nicely min/maxed at 1400, and would also get a Chainsaw, Wizard and a bribe against me).

IMHO to say that a team that is less than 3 seasons old "you're too developed' is crazy.

My TT league is in it's 6th season, and it's runs a dream...

TV Caps aren't needed, and will only make this division a [B] like environment. We have one of those already, and it's a damn good one (for what it is)...

That said, I don't hate the idea of a point penalty for bloated teams... Like a handicap... That's a fairer way to do it - and doesn't make people have to leave their team prone to getting mashed by CPOMB. Perhaps a sliding scale might be feasible...
clarkin



Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2012 - 15:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm pro TV caps. It worked in the TR world (caps were 200 and 150 btw), and its a great punishment for relegation. Even with caps you will still get lots of inducement games, so saying caps makes the league like B is just plain wrong.

Caps of tv 1500 and 1900 perhaps? 14/18 seems low.

Should also consider using TW. Else you can trim down for one game and then rebuy positionals if you are a race that stockpiles money easily.


One problem here is being unable to change your team after you 'ready' it.
gjopie



Joined: Oct 27, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2012 - 15:47 Reply with quote Back to top

clarkin wrote:
One problem here is being unable to change your team after you 'ready' it.


If you advertise it properly, then it is ultimately the responsibility of the coach to make sure they come in under the cap. If they end up over it, they get a points penalty.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 14, 2012 - 17:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi there Chavo (thought this was the post to answer, since it was so thoroughly opposed to the idea).†

Letís start by saying Iím not some fresh faced n00b, flailing an opinion into a thread having played five games. Iím sure you know Iíve been around the block in this league, in this division since my day one on the site. Iíve also played an open TV TT league, where Inducements work very well indeed. I like to think, therefore, I have an opinion based upon experience. This isnít to say, however, Iíve been here forever and thus your views count less. Quite the opposite, itís nice to have an alternate view voiced.†

What Iím saying is not ĎWaa, Iím trying Khemri in this ruleset and theyíre rubbish, give me a chanceí (infact, Khemri were selected specifically because theyíre awful, leagues like this are all about a challenge for me), nor ĎI want all games to be even like the other divisions!í (again, the increased team management would do the very opposite!), Iím saying I want games to be tighter than they are and relegation / team management to mean something. In the first 15 odd seasons in this league, we had caps, and I donít remember every game being TR equal (far from it). Moreover, in my time as commish of this league, the complaints I received revolved around teams getting promoted too early and the caps not being tight enough, never that they were there to begin with. They were enduringly popular.†

Inducements do narrow the gap (and as such, we gave uncapped divisions a shot), and you do have a choice around them. First seasons in this league have always been a baptism of fire, and losses are to be expected. But expecting coaches to jettison the random gimmick that may allow a win for stuff to keep the team ticking over and accept losses isÖ Perhaps not realistic.†

My lack of fun is not coming from Khemri, I find the race fun. Itís the detached feeling I donít like. That Amazon team mentioned must be having an awful season. Do the opponent wizard / saw gimmicks work? Great, I lose, but not because Iíve played poorly. Do they not? Great, a trained monkey could win the game. My view is not based around my team, itís just something that smacked me in my face during my last game. Iíve always been behind caps.†

Iím glad to see over the first few hours of the thread being bumped this idea is popular. Obviously, itís far from a blanket approval, but it is food for thought for Jock.†

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JockMcRowdy



Joined: Jul 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 23:33 Reply with quote Back to top

i havent read all of your last post yet mr goo, i will later.

but i must begrudingly admint that caps would be sensible, the divisions did look very unbalanced this season and it does create some odd match ups.

I would prefer to start them slightly higher and see how it goes. perhaps

Prem: Uncapped.
Confs: 1900 Cap OR 12 Players no more than 2050 if relegated (2 point penalty)
Regionals 1500 OR 11 Players no more than 1600 if relegated (2 point penalty).

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phil78



Joined: Jul 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2012 - 00:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd be against caps purely due to the trouble of managing tv/tw in between games if you have already set your team as ready to play. It sounds a bit of a nightmare tbh
James_Probert



Joined: Nov 25, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2012 - 00:23 Reply with quote Back to top

phil78 wrote:
I'd be against caps purely due to the trouble of managing tv/tw in between games if you have already set your team as ready to play. It sounds a bit of a nightmare tbh


I think (until unreadying is an option for league admins, atleast), that you have to accept one or other of these:

No caps

or

Teams going into a new season unreadied

You don't need to accept both, but until C implements an 'unready' option for admins, then, in my opinion, one of these has to be accepted as the lesser of two evils.

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spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2012 - 00:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm a bit wary of caps mainly due to practicalities.

Surely we'd have to use TW otherwise a team could have couple of players MNG at the end of the season so be below the cap for game 1 but shoot up and be far above it for the rest of the season.

I also think it will be hard to enforce as it is very easy to click ready to play meaning you can't change the team. We have had a hard enough time getting people to pick skills before season starts as it is.

Looking at the league as it stands the caps would have little impact on the Premier or conferences. Only 8 teams are above 1900 so the real issue is the regionals which is also the most problematic. On being relegated from the Premier trimming is not a major issue, but going down to the regionals could be very tough.

My biggest fear is that we will end up with the [B] mentality as a TV cap would encourage min/maxing and punishes the already weaker hybrid teams the most. I would think using Khemri in the WIL would be even tougher if you had a cap.
Teams are already punished pretty harshly by the inducement system for being too bloated. My humans are often around the 1900 mark and regularly face 1750 teams that already feel stronger even before they get a wizard,

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2012 - 10:15 Reply with quote Back to top

The mng and practicality arguments are good. However, I don't think having to be creative or the status quo making for an easier life are good enough reasons not to improve. Creativity (perhaps TW, I don't know), effective comms and penalties will do a job. So far as I know, Jock doesn't insist on ready to play now anyway.

As for making the league lame and minmaxy, there's nothing stopping anyone doing that now. I don't think in a league with such a range of teams and TV (capped or nay) it's a winning strategy anyway. You aren't (effectively) picking in B here. Life is tougher than shooting fish in that easy barrel. Wink

Oh, and r/p/s/d? Is this still on ready/ desirable?

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spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2012 - 19:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the cap on the regionals will hurt the scissors teams the most, they tend to be the ones who need a more traditional lrb4 build with a more even spread of spp's and some reserves. Elves are fine with some loners and a couple of stars and I'm sure most bash teams would just keep their deadliest killers and ball carrier.

I could see Khemri having an even tougher time as it is not that hard to get promoted to the conferences if we have a few drop outs. They are more likely to go down and would suffer much more if having to trim back.

But if we look at the prem as it stands there are only 3 teams above the 190 TV mark and 2 teams below 160 (in 2nd and 3rd place at present) so is a cap really needed?

Also i could see coaches losing interest in a team if they have to trim a lot of TV and just quitting or starting with a bash team.

The spread of teams is pretty similar to the LRB4 days with rock being the most popular and scissors the least, but I have been promoting scissors in the Fringe so as it stands we are.

Rock - 32
Scissors - 22
paper - 23
Dynamite - 5

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Ehlers



Joined: Jun 26, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2012 - 19:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Why not just raise the caps then? I see a reason for caps so that a team cant sit and farm spp and money and then make a push for the top.

Prem: Uncapped.
Confs: 2000 Cap OR 12 Players no more than 2100 if relegated (2 point penalty)
Regionals 1700 OR 11 Players no more than 1800 if relegated (2 point penalty).

Something along these linies.
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