| Poll |
| Do you want BR in the Formula? |
| Yes - And if it is removed, I will likely leave Blackbox |
|
4% |
[ 10 ] |
| Yes - But I would play Blackbox regardless |
|
23% |
[ 53 ] |
| No - But I would play Blackbox regardless |
|
39% |
[ 91 ] |
| No - And if it remains, I will likely leave Blackbox |
|
20% |
[ 48 ] |
| Unsure - I have not decided, or do not understand BR |
|
12% |
[ 28 ] |
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| Total Votes : 230 |
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RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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 Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 11:50 |
 
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| clarkin wrote: | | RC wrote: | | Well I disagree, unless I am playing Dorfs, orcs or blodge elves I will lose 2 players every turn (k.o, cas). |
It may feel dangerous to your team but khemri (even with many DPs) have a very difficult time winning.
You don't see them winning any majors for a reason. |
Majors...
That is a very bad example. Look at rookie, elite or pro smacks instead |
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"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar." |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 11:52 |
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I have beaten Flix, PeteW, Pigstar, Purplegoo and PurpleChest in Ranked games, and I consider them all to be much better coaches than I am.
If I only got to meet them in Blackbox with a huge TS advantage, then I would feel any win there would be next to worthless.
If someone is the best coach on the site, let them have a 90% win rate. If someone is the worst coach on the site, let them have a 10% win rate, so they can enjoy that win, don't spoon feed them until they are playing TS160 Dwarves against TS80 halflings.
This is all just an opinion of course, but I would prefer to look back on my victories as if they mean something. |
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Mattybee
Joined: Mar 22, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:06 |
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Which is why I think that if there is BR accounted for, it should never result in a huge TS factor. Maybe if AwfulMc-3DBsAllDay is playing, I dunno, PurpleChest, it should still be a RELATIVELY even game. 10 TS? Maybe? If that. There's no way BR should result in huge swings. |
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Focus
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:08 |
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I wholeheartedly agree with Jan. |
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Supporting dwarf and orc coaches in their struggle to be recognised as equals. Down with the prince of lies BillBrasky!  |
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RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:16 |
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So how about trying to fix the TS formula instead. I know it is probably super difficult but I always felt that rookie orcs had a lower ts than they should and for example rookie Necros have a very high ts when they should not. |
_________________
"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar." |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:20 |
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I think the TS is borked for Regen teams, which is why I think Necro and undead teams have a high starting TS, but I guess that's a different issue. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:24 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | I have no problem with including or not including BR but PurpleChest vs AverageCoach in balanced game looks a lot like a cherrypick to me |
Koadah, the thing is that the GAME is balanced. Purplechest is just better.
And if you are a worse coach, by playing on equal teams you lose but grow more skilled with time, while playing with a upper hand might give you some wins and the feeling that "you are not that bad after all".
I would honestly shake my head at a Chess pairing system that makes me play against a good player who is taken away his rooks...
Hell, what's this politically correctness? If you're worse than someone, you swallow your pride and get better by learning. You don't ask for artificial ways to play on even ground... Especially if there's nothing other than "skill" that separates you from a better coach. It's not like you're use-impaired at playing bb... it's just that you're not as experienced and skilled *yet*.
(ps: *you* is used in its general meaning here, and is not referring to Sir Koadah who would probably pwn me on the bloodbowl pitch anyway ^_^) |
Calm down, calm down
In the line you quoted I said
| Quote: | | I have no problem with including or not including BR |
The rest was a little dig at Purplechest for claiming to be
| Quote: | | a little above average |
Not political correctness but FUN.
I would consider having a fairly even chance of winning to be more fun than just having even teams.
I would have thought that getting too many easy games in a row would be dull.
(Unless you are FF mining)
I would hope that there would be a [B] Championship.
If there is, then not using championship ranking or BR means that you need a lucky draw to win it. i.e. If your opponents are not tough enough you can't win because your wins are not good enough.
That is similar to what you have with a Swiss tournament.
If there is no championship then it is less of an issue but it would still be nice to have a tough game rather than an easy one.
You can pick easy games in [R] if you want one so it would be nice to have something different. |
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Wotfudboy
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:26 |
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I'm not sure what to say other than:
1) I would like to play challenging games...
2) I would like to play fairly quick games <1hr if possible
3) I would like variation in the races I face
4) I just want to have fun and am not so concerned about winning...
Bearing this in mind, if Blackbox Rating being added into the formula to assess a match up then fine. I assume that as my BR goes up I will face tougher challenges... that's not so bad either... as long as it doesn't get ridiculous. |
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See my blog: https://wotfudboy.blogspot.com/.
WIL. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:28 |
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| koadah wrote: | | You can pick easy games in [R] if you want one so it would be nice to have something different. |
In R if your CR is high enough you don't get easy games, you get a lot of "no tnx" on even offers (and on slightly masochist ones too).
As soon as I hit CR 170 back in the days, no one wanted to face the Hellfish any more... :/ |
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Mithrilpoint
Joined: Mar 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:29 |
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| Quote: | | I would consider having a fairly even chance of winning to be more fun than just having even teams. |
I'm on this side of the fence as well. It's as much a way of giving the horribad coach a bigger chance of winning as it is a way of increasing the difficulty for the good coach.
But that being said, i agree that the influence of BR on the matchups should be tweaked to a reasonnable level. I have no clue how much TS, BR is worth. |
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Stop the Whining! |
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Emeyin
Joined: Apr 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:34 |
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Having a high BR shouldn't be a handicap, imo. I agree with Jan Mattys on this one. |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:47 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | At the Olympics, the Dream Team doesn't get a smaller basket when facing France or England, *to make it harder to score and to even things a bit"... |
In order to be at the olympics, you have to go through a selection process that is a bit more rigorous than clicking an activate link, though. So I don't think the smaller basket necessarily applies, because the difference in skill isn't as severe as it is when pairing noobs and experienced players.
We are all speculating what the intention of the blackbox is. If it is to give matches based on roughly equal teams, then you're right. However, if the aim is to provide matches that are roughly equal regarding the coaches' chance to win, then that kinda nullifies the "Oh it's perfectly ok for the karate black belt to beat up a white belt - nobody forced him to compete." argumentation. |
Last edited by Optihut on %b %14, %2008 - %13:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:58 |
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Of course it's up to Christer to decide what's the point of the Division. We're just discussing preferences here.
I'll make myself clear once and for all then just shut up:
I dream of a division where the w/t/l record matters and is universally accepted as meaningful.
If you let into the matching formula ways to handicap the better coach and always have a 50% win chance, then in an ideal world everyone, no matter how good or how bad, will have a 50% win or loss (assuming ts is working perfectly, and even dice). Which is kinda dull in my opinion. Of course I'm exaggerating, but I hope you get the point.
Equal teams, and make the coaches matter. This way, a good w/t/l record would really mean a good coach. And nothing else. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 13:00 |
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| DukeTyrion wrote: | I have beaten Flix, PeteW, Pigstar, Purplegoo and PurpleChest in Ranked games, and I consider them all to be much better coaches than I am.
If I only got to meet them in Blackbox with a huge TS advantage, then I would feel any win there would be next to worthless.
If someone is the best coach on the site, let them have a 90% win rate. If someone is the worst coach on the site, let them have a 10% win rate, so they can enjoy that win, don't spoon feed them until they are playing TS160 Dwarves against TS80 halflings.
This is all just an opinion of course, but I would prefer to look back on my victories as if they mean something. |
Sure, but if you mostly got to play those guys at a TS disadvantage that wouldn't be so great either.
I can't see why someone would want a 90% win rate unless the wins were of a certain level of difficulty.
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the top coaches should lose to complete rookies 50% of the time.
But if you climb the rankings the your reward is more games against the top coaches.
Ideally the rankings/championship should mean more than just 'I've played a lot of games'. |
_________________
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2008 - 13:03 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | I dream of a division where the w/t/l record matters and is universally accepted as meaningful. |
That is something I agree with and despite my evil fouling ways in B, I also aim to win. |
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