32 coaches online • Server time: 01:00
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Gnomes are trashgoto Post Secret League Americ...goto Post Roster Tiers
SearchSearch 
Petition: Remove the -10/-5 TS rebate for 0/1 re-rolls
 Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 12, 13, 14  Next
FUMBBL Forum Index » Divisions » Blackbox
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
SHould the TS rebate be removed?
Remove the TS rebate
58%
 58%  [ 109 ]
Keep things as they are
23%
 23%  [ 43 ]
Keep things as they are, but fix the Leader thing
18%
 18%  [ 34 ]
Total Votes : 186


SillySod



Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2009 - 18:21 Reply with quote Back to top
Dont allow any rebate for teams with leader. Leader has its own (rather significant) rebate already built in. Also the reason that one and zero RR teams get a rebate is that they actually have to play in a fundamentally different way - if you have a RR then you can probably afford to risk a throw at a vital point... but without any RR that option probably isnt very beneficial, if you have a leader RR then you are not in this situation.

_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.

"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Draxus



Joined: Nov 14, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 01:28 Reply with quote Back to top
Links to teams WITH 0RR can be countered with links of teams WITHOUT 0RR http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=508677
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 01:48 Reply with quote Back to top
no they can't...teams with rerolls don't get a -10TS bonus, or any sort of bonus....

--j

_________________
origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

ImageImage
Draxus



Joined: Nov 14, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 02:14 Reply with quote Back to top
Yes they can be... Due to the bonus of rerolling failed actions on the pitch, and that IS A BONUS!


Last edited by Draxus on %b %12, %2009 - %02:%Jan; edited 1 time in total
Laviak



Joined: Jul 19, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 02:17 Reply with quote Back to top
I think that the first reroll is definitely worth more than additional rerolls. That said, the same thing is also true of many other skills/stats etc.

E.g. Having a single player that has Block vs having no players with block is very valuable - a lot more valuable than the cost of the skill. It gives you someone that can "safely" blitz every turn. Similarly, additional DPs after the first are not *as* useful either (though still quite useful if you have a few reserves). And there are plenty more skills in the same boat (frenzy, kick, tackle, strip ball, leader, etc, etc).

I think that really, the problem with rerolls that they are not costed correctly in general. The first should be more valuable in terms of TS than later ones. Something to consider - a team with 7 rerolls vs an otherwise identical team with 8 rerolls - how much use is that one extra reroll going to be?

_________________
We Fink Wer Orks
--------
Help save blood bowl, foul an elf today!.
Eddy



Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 02:19 Reply with quote Back to top
The problem with the rebate is that is is a rebate.

When you've got a skill, say, Dodge, you're paying for it cause it gives you an advantage. And if you don't have Dodge, then you don't have the advantage. But you don't get a rebate either.

We're just saying that, if you have no RR, your team might not be as weak as the current TS says it is, especially when combined with other stuff (such as a Leader RR, or an environment that uses TS to make "fair matches").

_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou
Laviak



Joined: Jul 19, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 02:44 Reply with quote Back to top
I don't think it being a rebate is a problem - *everyone* starts with the rebate, and then pays an additional 5TS for each of their first two rerolls. Whether the costing is correct, I don't know, but the first rerolls are more valueable (in my opinion). I'd argue that it's more the "when combined with other stuff" part that is a problem, not the cost of rerolls (leader and chefs are the big ones)

At the other extreme Is it fair to pit a TS160 chaos team with 8 rerolls at 70 TS each against another TS150 (includes the 10ts rebate) chaos team with 0 rerolls? Basically, what I'm saying is that I think it is a bit broader than just the rebate.

_________________
We Fink Wer Orks
--------
Help save blood bowl, foul an elf today!.
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 06:06 Reply with quote Back to top
I think removing or modifying it severly this is a given. Nobody benefits from this serious tweakage.

Of course it's part of a bigger whole, but that doesn't make it any better, and it still needs changing.

_________________
Join the SWL
Image
Get your team bios here!
Putting the romantic in necromantic since 2010
Shrap



Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 07:25 Reply with quote Back to top
yeah too many dwarf teams out there with 0RRs beating low TS teams down its a serious problem Id say.
Draxus



Joined: Nov 14, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 07:55 Reply with quote Back to top
Then that is an issue with dwarf teams and not... say Vampire teams. So then look at Dwarves specifically and raise their TS. Do not remove the -10 TS rebate, because for say a vamp team starting out with 4 vamps and no RR that makes them weak. Remember boys and girls TS gives you an idea of how strong a team will be next game.

0RR Rookie Dwarves vs 0RR Rookie Vamps how strong is each team for the next game?

100/??? vs 100/???


Last edited by Draxus on %b %12, %2009 - %08:%Jan; edited 1 time in total
xcver



Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 08:03 Reply with quote Back to top
well next we could start a discussion about a minimum FF for starting [B] teams....

_________________
"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts
ftjust



Joined: Aug 02, 2003
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 08:03 Reply with quote Back to top
Draxus wrote:
Links to teams WITH 0RR can be countered with links of teams WITHOUT 0RR http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=508677


so that team is http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=514555

32 TS stronger then this but anyone can clearly see they should be equaly strong.
Shrap



Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 08:09 Reply with quote Back to top
uuuuh when you have 4 guys with mighty blow 5 guys with guard and a ST up and your TS is 118 there is a problem...I watch this dwarf team dismantle a 130TS norse team easily.
Draxus



Joined: Nov 14, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 08:28 Reply with quote Back to top
Ftjust, even if the removing the rebate was implemented that does not make a +32 TS difference it would only make 10... where is the other 22 TS, in your they should be equally strong formula?

Shrap, even if the rebate was removed for the dwarf team adding 10 TS to 118 = 128, they would still get matched up by the Black Box and dismantle those Norse.

The issue as I said before isn't the -10 TS rebate for no RR, It is how dwarves are undervalued TS wise. Try pulling off that with a 4 vamp team with no rerolls
Shrap



Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 12, 2009 - 08:30 Reply with quote Back to top
wrong.....the rebate is stand alone....the RR itself count towards the TS

EDIT: I love how you pick the worst team you can have as your example....you win at teh internets!
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 12, 13, 14  Next
 FUMBBL Forum Index » Divisions » Blackbox