FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

CorporateSlave3

Joined: Feb 07, 2004

Posted: Feb 12, 2009 - 15:36

Snappy_Dresser wrote:

If all you're doing is prepping teams for tourneys, then Ranked is the division for you.

Perhaps a BlackBox tourney? Something like a FumbblSmack in [B]? Anyone have ideas if/how something like this could work?

(and I don't have time to search the forums in case someone else already brought this up... Razz

)

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westerner

Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Posted: Feb 12, 2009 - 15:45

Last couple of nights (US time) there haven't been many [B] games played.. some input from Christer about the future of [B] would be appreciated.

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Snappy_Dresser

Joined: Feb 11, 2005

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 04:23

PurpleChest wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

Alot of coaches have said that CR means nothing and that a ranking system from something like Blackbox will show a much closer picture to the truth, except that in Blackbox we are unable to see the ranking Confused

That always cheers me up.

I suppose one day someone might make a case as to why that should be so, but so far every time they have tried it just comes out sounding absurd.

i do see no reason not to show BR though. Might help [B] stay alive for a bit, until a faction decide there is another, supposedly even fairer, way of willy measuring that they think they'd come out on top of.

Seriously Purplechest, I get it. You don't enjoy Blackbox. Now, since you have nothing to contribute other than your negative, pissy attitude, would you mind getting lost? If we wanted Ranked fanboi griefing, we would have this thread in the Ranked section.

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Balle2000

Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 06:01

Christer:

How about testing lowering the minimum coach limit to 5?

That way there would be more games played, and while playing, we can see if there's any exploitation going on.

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odi

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 09:51

The way the number of games are going... Soon even faction is gonna have more games than BDiv Sad

Even though I put up all that effort during my sick leave...

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 11:53

DukeTyrion wrote:

Frankenstein wrote:

Wouldn't a blackboxish match-up service in [R] suffice? Why is it necessary to have a new division for that?

Just wondering.

Because all the Elf teams would continue to play picking their games in Ranked, whilst all the Bashing teams would end up in the Ranked match-up service.

And even if it was all why would it be a problem?

The games are matched on TS so why is it a problem how the teams got there?

How many people are really bothered about playing pure teams?

DukeTyrion wrote:

In Blackbox, at least you have some agility teams trying to win their games and progress their teams, as there is no other option, in Ranked they can choose thier games, so why would they force themselves to play 5 DP Khemri?

Same reason. No one is forced to play in [B]. They do it because they want to.

[B] was in beta to be tested. Well we've tested it.

It is supposed to be a competitive division but there is nothing to compete for but individual games which you can do in any other division.

[B] seemed to have it's heyday while the Tour and Minors where in off season. Now they are back I probably won't play [B] unless I'm defeated in the first round.

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DukeTyrion

Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 12:27

koadah wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

Frankenstein wrote:

Wouldn't a blackboxish match-up service in [R] suffice? Why is it necessary to have a new division for that?

Just wondering.

Because all the Elf teams would continue to play picking their games in Ranked, whilst all the Bashing teams would end up in the Ranked match-up service.

And even if it was all why would it be a problem?

The games are matched on TS so why is it a problem how the teams got there?

How many people are really bothered about playing pure teams?

It's not a question of how they got there, it's a question of which teams will play.

Blackbox existed originally in Ranked, and the only teams that played there were the bashers, the same thing will happen and the same people that said they would play Blackbox, but drifted away, will stop playing in the Ranked one too.

Added to which, the people that want to play their Blackbox teams against other Blackbox teams will wish to continue to do so against team which have progressed in the same enviroment.

koadah wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

In Blackbox, at least you have some agility teams trying to win their games and progress their teams, as there is no other option, in Ranked they can choose thier games, so why would they force themselves to play 5 DP Khemri?

Same reason. No one is forced to play in [B]. They do it because they want to.

[B] was in beta to be tested. Well we've tested it.

It is supposed to be a competitive division but there is nothing to compete for but individual games which you can do in any other division.

[B] seemed to have it's heyday while the Tour and Minors where in off season. Now they are back I probably won't play [B] unless I'm defeated in the first round.

Now here you are agreeing with my main point, Blackbox Rating needs to be shown, especially as it means nothing in the game scheduling now.

Some kind of tournament in Blackbox might also help, but I am aware that there are no plans for this, at least in the short to medium term.

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 14:42

DukeTyrion wrote:

It's not a question of how they got there, it's a question of which teams will play.

Yes, you are right. My wussy tournament teams won't play.

In [R] though I do have a steady supply of teams that could do with putting out of their misery Wink

In [B] I cannot choose which team plays so I keep only one. If I don't feel like playing that team I don't play [B].

Even if I could choose which team plays none of those teams could play in my favourite [R] tournaments so there is no incentive to create more teams.

DukeTyrion wrote:

Blackbox existed originally in Ranked, and the only teams that played there were the bashers, the same thing will happen and the same people that said they would play Blackbox, but drifted away, will stop playing in the Ranked one too.

Isn't that the same situation as we have in [B] now?

How does being a seperate division help?

DukeTyrion wrote:

Added to which, the people that want to play their Blackbox teams against other Blackbox teams will wish to continue to do so against team which have progressed in the same enviroment.

How many people would really stop playing [B] for this reason?
Come on raise your hands.

I say that splitting the divisions reduces the number of teams available and the number of games.

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odi

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 14:56

I actually do like the idea, that all the teams I meet at my TR, have gotten there the same way and not picking their fights. The racial factors in B for my rats isnt that far off from the racial spread my skaven got in R, well, it is different but still mostly Orcs and Chaos (back when I was playing there, years ago). I just like the idea, that you are constantly thrown into a random game. And it's do or die time, no recovery games. And I prefer to play with like minded coaches, who are there to play, not caring about their pixels. In B, most of my games the opponent dont care if my AV7 outbashes his AV9, since it happens every now and then (not often enough though).

And I do think B could be the most competitive division, if we got something to compete for.

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 14:58

odi wrote:

I actually do like the idea, that all the teams I meet at my TR, have gotten there the same way and not picking their fights. The racial factors in B for my rats isnt that far off from the racial spread my skaven got in R, well, it is different but still mostly Orcs and Chaos (back when I was playing there, years ago). I just like the idea, that you are constantly thrown into a random game. And it's do or die time, no recovery games. And I prefer to play with like minded coaches, who are there to play, not caring about their pixels. In B, most of my games the opponent dont care if my AV7 outbashes his AV9, since it happens every now and then (not often enough though).

And I do think B could be the most competitive division, if we got something to compete for.

Sure, but if it was moved to [R] would you stop playing?

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sk8bcn

Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 14:59

koadah wrote:

How many people would really stop playing [B] for this reason?
Come on raise your hands.

Me!
Me!

I am ready to send a team in blackbox as it is fair.

And play elves there.

If it was ranked, it wouldn't be the same.

See it this way: I would find it unfair to be ranked according to a different "ruleset" than somebody else. At least, if B had a BR showed, I'd know that the other guys plays under the same rules. In R, well, some would again metagame between matchmaking and free play, and I doesn't feel like playing this way.

Hence, I wouldn't send light teams in an hypothetical R match-making.

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DukeTyrion

Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 15:18

koadah wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

It's not a question of how they got there, it's a question of which teams will play.

Yes, you are right. My wussy tournament teams won't play.

In [R] though I do have a steady supply of teams that could do with putting out of their misery Wink

In [B] I cannot choose which team plays so I keep only one. If I don't feel like playing that team I don't play [B].

Your team may well play in [R] Blackbox, but it's not specifically your team we are discussing, it's the masses.

You do highlight another thing I have an issue with though, as the team I wanted to play in [B]lackbox kept getting missed I ended up deleting all my other teams, so I also now only have 1. Perhaps this is another major flaw in [B] which needs to be looked at.

koadah wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

Blackbox existed originally in Ranked, and the only teams that played there were the bashers, the same thing will happen and the same people that said they would play Blackbox, but drifted away, will stop playing in the Ranked one too.

Isn't that the same situation as we have in [B] now?

How does being a seperate division help?

Because at the moment, Blackbox remains a division for the purists, who view the next closest competitive division to be [L], not [R].

koadah wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

Added to which, the people that want to play their Blackbox teams against other Blackbox teams will wish to continue to do so against team which have progressed in the same enviroment.

How many people would really stop playing [B] for this reason?
Come on raise your hands.

You can count me in that list.

My Rats in [B] got there the hard way, the same thing in [R] would have no appeal for my [R] Rats.

When I want my [R] rats to do something similar, I can just enter a scheduled Smack anyway.

I think you can see the issues as well as anyone koadah, it's just that you would be happy to have [B] deleted and games returned to [R], where most of us would like the issues in [B] resolved and the idea carried fully through to become a reality.

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 16:43

DukeTyrion wrote:

Your team may well play in [R] Blackbox, but it's not specifically your team we are discussing, it's the masses.

Oooh! I thought I was an ordinary guy. Wink

DukeTyrion wrote:

Because at the moment, Blackbox remains a division for the purists, who view the next closest competitive division to be [L], not [R].

Cue discussion on what competitive means in this context? Wink

[L] is only as competitive as the tournaments that you play in.

If there are enough purists to make it work then fine. If not a few casuals could be handy to make up the numbers.

DukeTyrion wrote:

I think you can see the issues as well as anyone koadah, it's just that you would be happy to have [B] deleted and games returned to [R], where most of us would like the issues in [B] resolved and the idea carried fully through to become a reality.

I was against the idea of two boxes because I didn't think that there would be enough punters for them both to work. Now we're worried about being able to make just one work.

sk8bcn wrote:

See it this way: I would find it unfair to be ranked according to a different "ruleset" than somebody else. At least, if B had a BR showed, I'd know that the other guys plays under the same rules. In R, well, some would again metagame between matchmaking and free play, and I doesn't feel like playing this way.

For ranking I would still use BR. Maybe include official tournament games in BR to. Only count BR earning games for the Championship.

[B] is great as long as there are enough teams to give even games.

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DukeTyrion

Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 16:59

koadah wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

Your team may well play in [R] Blackbox, but it's not specifically your team we are discussing, it's the masses.

Oooh! I thought I was an ordinary guy. Wink

Indeed, it's just that I am not discussing any individual, rather the populace as a whole.

koadah wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

Because at the moment, Blackbox remains a division for the purists, who view the next closest competitive division to be [L], not [R].

Cue discussion on what competitive means in this context? Wink

[L] is only as competitive as the tournaments that you play in.

Agreed, for me competitive is PBI, WIL, OBBA. But each coach will have their own views on it.

koadah wrote:

DukeTyrion wrote:

I think you can see the issues as well as anyone koadah, it's just that you would be happy to have [B] deleted and games returned to [R], where most of us would like the issues in [B] resolved and the idea carried fully through to become a reality.

I was against the idea of two boxes because I didn't think that there would be enough punters for them both to work. Now we're worried about being able to make just one work.

If there is not enough games for both, then I think we should concentrate on the division that it's designed for. After all, [R] has scheduled smacks and majors.

I think, despite the many ways of wording it, most people have a wish to see [B] work, the frustrating thing is perhaps not seeing any direction, or response from Christer, but it's his site and I am full of gratitude that it exists, so in the meanwhile, I will continue on with my [L] games.

Snappy_Dresser

Joined: Feb 11, 2005

Posted: Feb 13, 2009 - 20:58

Here's the painful truth.

Blackbox is dying. It is a victim of bad reputation and too many selfish coaches. The only solution is for Christer to appoint a heavy handed admin, who imposes a minimum number of teams, team quotas, and hopefully (eventually) reforms the demonstrably flawed TS formula.

These are not controversial ideas, and anyone I've discussed this with who has a modicum of sense admits that some form of the above is necessary, even if they do it while screaming at each other.

But Christer seems to not want to address concern and is happy to continue collecting useless data, allowing [B] to die twisting on the line.

So how about it Christer? Let's kick this out of a stagnant "testing" period, and start to do something with Blackbox, unless all you're testing is how long it will take the last sensible coach to give up on what could be the best division in FUMBBL.

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