FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: May 07, 2016 - 23:48

licker wrote:

If you read more carefully you'd see that I don't agree that cpomb is a problem.
...

We've probably already argued it enough already. Enough to know that we don't agree.

PainState wrote:

koadah wrote:

Funny how people say they they won't play on Fumbbl because the community is horrible. I wonder why they'd say that.

You give DeathJester way to much "cred" man. Every "community" has a few DeathJesters running around.

That doesn't improve the impression it gives people arriving for the first time.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 00:01

licker wrote:

But generally the only complaints about cpomb stem from people who want to play high TV B and not run into it every 2nd or 3rd game.

It's not really an issue of it being OP, it's an issue of it warping the metas that allow it. My solution is not to remove it, merely to make it more difficult for these M rosters to spam. This is not so different from past editions where kill stack was rare because it was difficult to roll up the required skills on any player.

The issue is really with S access on chaos/Pact/nurgle. No one is worried about Skaven or Necro because while they can get the kill stack it's not easy for them to manage. CD are a bit of an issue because it's just one double on a blocker, but frankly CD aren't problematic because of cpomb, they just have so many other advantages they'd be problematic without it, and the CD teams I have run without claw, or with only one claw have still been brutal teams to face, much as simple dwarfs can be brutal to face after they have added enough guard and MB.

Oh, and no one cares about underworld, they simply lose their players too quickly, this is sort of the same check you have on Skaven as well, though Skaven are a crazy team in that they can easily make natural one turners and cpomb killers. Just that they tend to have a shorter life span, and then more difficulty reattaining those players.

Contrast to Chaos/Pact/Nurgle who just need to take normal skills to quickly and easily rebuild their killers. They are the short cut teams which get spammed because of their idiotic simplicity.

I agree 100% with this.

The only tweak that needs to happen is to make 2 of the 3 skills/mutations of the kill stack only available on a double roll.

PileOn needs to be changed into a old fashion LRB4 trait OR you make a big guy only group of skills that would have PileOn put into. Thus if you are not a big guy you need to roll a double to get it.

MightyBlow should be a S access skill that skill will not change.

Note: If the changes above happened then the Choas Mino and the Beast of Nurgle would be the only players who had to roll one double to achieve CPOMB. Every other player would be required to roll 2 doubles.

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Last edited by PainState on %b %08, %2016 - %00:%May; edited 1 time in total

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 00:10

koadah wrote:

That doesn't improve the impression it gives people arriving for the first time.

Well, in the ideal universe the guys like DeathJester would not "troll" the topics but alas, we do not live in that world.

Also if a "new", first time coach actually reads this thread and what it is about....HE IS RUNNING TO THE HILLS, never to be scene again and most likely eaten by Beastmen with CPOMB.

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bghandras

Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 08:00

licker wrote:

Does anyone really complain about cpomb in leagues? Well I'm sure some will complain about it anywhere, but is it largely an issue in leagues?

I have heard complains in many different leagues. There were cases where I
- Did not agree with the complaint
- I agreed with the complaint
- Where it was not visible which side is right, and more statistical evidence was needed.

In one league all the members agreed that killstack is detrimental, and brainstormed together whether ban it altogether, or "just" use every possible nerf option. (The latter won out.)

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BillBrasky

Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 08:21

I don't mind kill-stack obviously.

However; if people wanted to put a custom rule in their house league, one fix I have not heard previously, but just thought about:

Piling-On:
...(text book stuff).
If a casualty is caused by piling-on, do not roll on the injury chart. That player suffers from badly hurt.

plasmoid

Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 08:34

The elusive ex-BBRC member recently posted on TFF that he is not a CPOMB fan.
He suggested this neat fix:
PiOn can only be used in a Pow.

harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 08:41

BillBrasky wrote:

I don't mind kill-stack obviously.

However; if people wanted to put a custom rule in their house league, one fix I have not heard previously, but just thought about:

Piling-On:
...(text book stuff).
If a casualty is caused by piling-on, do not roll on the injury chart. That player suffers from badly hurt.

In game mechanically I like that a lot. Fluffwise it's terrible. I think due to that, there are better fixes. Also wouldn't it have a detrimental effect on attrition balance?

tussock

Joined: May 29, 2011

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 09:05

Big Guy skills is an interesting idea.

Stand Firm: also taking on the old role of not falling over on a failed dodge. Go Treemen!
Piling On: you just need to be big, or use a double to get that effect. Big guys are also more valuable on their feet.
Juggernaut: takes a big guy to push a big guy, and slap the wrestlers down.
Grab: takes real power to just put folk exactly where you want 'em.

Needs more though. Something new? Could steal Nerves of Steel out of passing because he's just reaching up above all the TZs, isn't he. Brilliant for TTM that, help the stunty teams. Maybe take Disturbing Presence out of mutations for filler, big guys are stinky and scary, get it a bit more use.

Then steal some stuff out of General for Strength (say Dauntless and Fend).

And probably leave Claw. It's the worst skill in the stack by a long way, and one less Dodge or DT or Stand Firm or Grab on every CPOMB is already making them vastly easier to deal with and less spammy (because Wrestle and Fend and pushing clear and just knocking them down is easier).

Big Guy: Disturbing Presence, Grab, Juggernaut, Nerves of Steel, Piling On, Stand Firm*.
Strength: Break Tackle, Dauntless, Fend, Guard, Mighty Blow, Multiple Block, Strong Arm, Thick Skull.

That would seem to fix a bunch of little problems, and so easily grandfathered in. Smile

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licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 09:08

koadah wrote:

licker wrote:

If you read more carefully you'd see that I don't agree that cpomb is a problem.
...

We've probably already argued it enough already. Enough to know that we don't agree.

True, but then you telling me that there is a 'problem' I'm not addressing isn't going to get you anywhere is it? Smile

And I'm not for weakening PO. It's a good tool for the non-M races.

BillBrasky

Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 09:43

harvestmouse wrote:

BillBrasky wrote:

I don't mind kill-stack obviously.

However; if people wanted to put a custom rule in their house league, one fix I have not heard previously, but just thought about:

Piling-On:
...(text book stuff).
If a casualty is caused by piling-on, do not roll on the injury chart. That player suffers from badly hurt.

In game mechanically I like that a lot. Fluffwise it's terrible. I think due to that, there are better fixes. Also wouldn't it have a detrimental effect on attrition balance?

I think that like all "fixes" there would be unexpected consequences.

This would really dilute the aging solution. Killstack teams wouldn't really "hurt" teams in the long term.

But I'm sure we could brain-storm 20 different problems it would cause.

ArrestedDevelopment

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 11:17

plasmoid wrote:

The elusive ex-BBRC member recently posted on TFF that he is not a CPOMB fan.
He suggested this neat fix:
PiOn can only be used in a Pow.

His proposal is to make C/POMB an even dicier proposition than it is now?

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koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 13:22

licker wrote:

koadah wrote:

licker wrote:

If you read more carefully you'd see that I don't agree that cpomb is a problem.
...

We've probably already argued it enough already. Enough to know that we don't agree.

True, but then you telling me that there is a 'problem' I'm not addressing isn't going to get you anywhere is it? Smile

And I'm not for weakening PO. It's a good tool for the non-M races.

i'm not so much arguing as adding a -1 to show that there is disagreement for newer people. Wink

The PO on injury only is not that big a deal. People often don't PO AV9 armour anyway. They're more likely to PO av7. Which is everyone if you have a claw.

The CRP+ changes are probably not enough for the Box but they are pretty good for leagues.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 14:17

BillBrasky wrote:

Piling-On:
...(text book stuff).
If a casualty is caused by piling-on, do not roll on the injury chart. That player suffers from badly hurt.

The effect on the match would still be huge.
I don't really mind losing Tomb Guardians forever or having them just Badly Hurt, but I need to have Tomb Guardians on the pitch to have a chance of playing the game without watching passively my opponent destroying my team.
Even assuming that clawpomb caused KOs only, the depitch rate would still be too high.
Clawpomb would still remove high AV targets too easily.
Some teams really are impossible to play if they lose some key players.

JellyBelly

Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 14:27

MattDakka wrote:

BillBrasky wrote:

Piling-On:
...(text book stuff).
If a casualty is caused by piling-on, do not roll on the injury chart. That player suffers from badly hurt.

The effect on the match would still be huge.
I don't really mind losing Tomb Guardians forever or having them just Badly Hurt, but I need to have Tomb Guardians on the pitch to have a chance of playing the game without watching passively my opponent destroying my team.
Even assuming that clawpomb caused KOs only, the depitch rate would still be too high.
Clawpomb would still remove high AV targets too easily.
Some teams really are impossible to play if they lose some key players.

I think this is one reason why I would prefer to have aging (or some other off-pitch attrition mechanic). Because then, you still get the attrition, but it doesn't lead to so many skewed coin-toss games on-pitch.

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bghandras

Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Posted: May 08, 2016 - 14:30

There are so many other ways to manage attrition. Dont use such an unfun way as aging.

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