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Poll
What do you think?
I like it - seems like it might be a good alterntive to CRP
25%
 25%  [ 8 ]
Not for me - I think I'll stick with CRP thanks
50%
 50%  [ 16 ]
Pie!!!
25%
 25%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 32


JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 04:20 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Sure mate, I don't disagree with you that in perpetual environments there is more impetus for people to play bash, simply because it's easier to keep a bash team alive longer and a perpetual environment is essentially progress quest.
What I did and do disagree with is the idea that in a one off game the bash team is much stronger - it isn't necessarily true.
The majors, box and ranked are all flawed environments in their own ways, and aren't really good for judging rule and roster strength except in those environments.
I think you'll have real, strong issues ever coming up with a ruleset that is anything other than flawed unless you take into account that for a pretty large subset of players, high tv bloodbowl is neither the regular form of play, nor even the desirable form of play. And this is without even considering people who are playing res.

My point about High Elves was mostly a bit of fun, since I know you play them and enjoy them most Wink However, it is actually pretty obviously true! :p

I don't disagree with you that elves should be top tier, what we do disagree about is how you go about judging that - I don't think you judge a team's ability to be "top tier" or not on their capability of running the gauntlet in box, or winning a major.


I don't like the armour reroll because quite frankly if you're not breaking armour on a foul you're not doing it properly anyway. It might have been handy in the current ruleset as a replacement for sneaky git (in order to potentially get rid of doubles rolls on armour). But for me, if you're going to buff fouling it needs to be +2 to injury again. Especially true when you consider that a lot of the high tv cpomb monsters you wish to get rid of have regen.

Really, my issue with your ruleset is that it's sole focus appears to be on balancing a very focused point of bloodbowl, but it's not really the area everyone plays at. I think if you'd presented the claw nerf on its own (or alongside the fouling) people might be more receptive, but the additional baggage really detracts from it; and own its own, it's hardly anything majorly different from other past proposals.


I don't see why perpetual environments should be any more inherently flawed than any other format. I don't really want to get into a 'this format is better than that format' type of debate, but I wouldn't say low-TV resurrection represents the type of play that was originally 'intended' either (any more than [R] or [B] on Fumbbl). I mean, there is no provision anywhere in the rulebook for coaches each being given a handful of skill choices they can allocate as they desire, and then playing a one-off tournament without making use of any of the progression rules. (not that there's anything wrong with it..)

It seems that the kind of environment the rules were originally intended for was probably more like a closed, scheduled league, similar to the NWL/SWL. If a person new to the game was to read through the rulebook, I think that is the impression they would get. And the logical conclusion in that format is that teams will develop and, after 2-3 seasons, most of them will be playing at fairly high TV (until they get knocked down and have to rebuild, of course).

Where you say that, for a large subset of players, high TV play isn't desirable - I mean, obviously everyone is entitled to their preference, but it seems a bit strange to me. I mean, large sections of the rulebook deal specifically with team and player progression and management, so to say that high TV play wasn't desired or intended, I find hard to understand. If that were the case, then player progression should have been capped at 3 skills. Also, surely a big part of the fun of the game is developing your team and players; picking skills, etc? Why would people want to miss out on that? Although, maybe one of the reasons they don't want to play at high TV is because they know that the ruleset doesn't work very well there, which would kind of illustrate the problem I have been pointing out! Smile

I'm not suggesting that high TV is the only thing the ruleset should cater for; but, in my eyes, a good experience at high TV is absolutely critical for a successful BB ruleset.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 04:50 Reply with quote Back to top

About the Dwarves, it seems that Netflux and Mr. J more or less agree with my opinion that they are too strong 'out of the box' when they can start with blanket Block and Tackle (although maybe they disagree with the fixes I've chosen).

Not sure I see the Stand Firm as that much of a problem. Those dwarves are clearly going to have to take Block on their first normal skill, so after 1 skill they will have Block, Tackle, SF - a build which is available for any dwarf blocker on their first skill in CRP (except these ones cost 10k more). However, my understanding is that Guard and Mighty Blow are usually taken on linedwarves before SF, so that suggests to me that Stand Firm is not really such a high-priority skill. Are coaches in resurrection tournaments using their single skill picks to take 3x SF at the moment? Also, the blanket Stand Firm on the Earth Elementals in SL doesn't seem to be overpowering.

AD, I admit that I'm not exactly the most experienced Dwarf coach (although I have played a handful of games with them) and I'd be open to modifying my proposed roster. Maybe adding the Wrestlers as well wasn't necessary, and if the starting SF turns out to be too good, perhaps the defenders could just have Tackle and be the same cost as the Bockers? The key thing for me is that the starting Block and Tackle have to be separated (or at least not blanket across the team).

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 05:00 Reply with quote Back to top

They're not inherently any more flawed than other systems - I did not say that. What I did say was that they're not great for judging roster balance outside their own environments/metas.

Put it this way - cpomb chaos is not seen as a major problem on tabletop leagues because few people will actually stick chaos long enough on tabletop to get them to that point. It's a bit different playing 25+ games on tabletop (half a year in some cases, even longer in others) and bashing out 25 games in 3 days on fumbbl. Even in knowing that eventually you can get there if you just stick at it, most people won't.

When you upset the balance of low tv rosters, you upset the applecart in terms of what people play to mid-tv and whether it even gets to high-tv. This effect is magnified if we're talking about teams that may take many, many games of play to even begin to see the what you consider the positive side of your changes (ie. the orcs).

Res isn't the only format of tabletop (extremely far from it), I was just using it to show that there are other metas than online play to consider here.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2016 - 05:44 Reply with quote Back to top

The game works fine at high TV.

SWL, for instance, the next Premier division will have teams from, depending on the interim knockout happenings ...

2300 nurgs, 2150 lizardman and orc, 1950 elf, woodie, and delf, 1850 norse, and 1800 helf.



Which is about the TV range you expect from those teams around peak, the Nurgs always face a Wizard and more, the Elfs and Norse get Wizards and stars against the bash but not so much each other, the smaller helfs still in rebuild mode get a Wizard against everyone and two good stars vs the bash.

We've recently had big Dorfs at 2300 up there, big Delfs and Necro at 2200, and it's the Lizards keep winning lately. Before that it was a big Chorf team won heaps with a couple legend bulls and a superb AG 4 legend hob, interspersed with a huge Norse team with a sweet set of legends, had a couple wins for huge Chaos, a couple of big Dorfs, a big Necro, big Orc, big Undead, and huge Delf win it in LRB 6.

Elves always get close if their stars go perm-free, other big teams come and go. But CPOMB? Not much, eh, what wins here is mass Diving Tackle or mass Stand Firm and Guard or a great surf-threat team, or maybe soon enough one of those crazy leaping ST 4 (or ST 5) elves, or cluster of AG 6 elves that ignore the DT, or one of the big woodies with legend throwers and catchers will 1TTD their way to victory without snaking out a couple games, or a rat team will finally develop a couple ma 10 gutters and CPOMB storm vermin at the same time.

Because it's really hard to make a big Nurg team that can beat all the different types of teams with top coaches playing them, who all get a Wizard and stars.


If you mean the Nurgs might mess up those Orcs and Lizards a bit? Well, yes, that's rather what the other 48 coaches in the SWL are hoping, because they're super-difficult to beat in their current form, and the elves probably aren't going to get it done. There's a fluff prize for killing his AG 4 skink, for instance (also the Nurg's best CPOMB, and the 6448 blodge/SF/SH blitzer on the orcs, and various others).


If you mean Nurgs win a lot of tournaments here, when compared to the number of gigantic Nurgle teams that enter the big tournies they really don't, only Orcs and stunties do worse. Amazons do vastly better, in wins per entry, but there's almost no one enters them.


If you mean, Nurgs broke your team and made you rebuild, well, that's pretty much the point of them, yes. Think yourself lucky it wasn't Halflings doing the job.


Dwarves? They're OK, I really don't get why people don't like Dorfs and Orcs. They don't win that much early, they don't win much late, but they win a bit and get nice and big and can play like they're supposed to. The odd one even wins a small tourney now and then, but not often.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2016 - 02:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi tussock, thanks for your post. It's interesting to hear from the SWL perspective. Although, I know the SWL has a policy of enforced racial diversity, which perhaps helps to keep the top division from getting overrun with killer bash. I agree that if you're only facing 1 Nurgle in 10 games, then it's not such a big deal; however, if there were 4 CPOMB teams in the premier division, it might be a different story?

I have to say it looks like a great league though. I really hope the newly-rebooted NWL can get some momentum and build up the kind of following that you have.

Also, I accept what you say, AD, about the issues at high TV probably being more noticeable in online play than tabletop. Although, with Cyanide as well, more and more players are playing online, so in my opinion the ruleset needs to cater well for both.

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2016 - 08:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Cheers, Jelly. Fluff is good for leagues, eh, team history and rivalry and stuff.

Diversity does help the teams that do better against diverse opponents, you have to win most of your games against a variety of good teams to even make the SWL premier, there's no overtime and attrition alone is only rarely enough for that.

So we could have had 4 CPOMB teams up there for next season (and more bash teams in general), but the rest didn't make it. Our 6 qualifiers went a combined 27/12/3, with the Nurgs squeaking through on 4/3/0 for the last spot.

--

Plus, in League, you're going to meet what you meet regardless of your team. Blackbox, and a few of the tournaments here, have this thing where you can dump RRs and keep a short bench to (mostly) avoid having to play against CPOMB spam, but in league you hit it anyway. Then spare RRs and a deep bench are great, so more of the teams thus get really big and try to stay big all the time, meaning there is naturally more variety up there.

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