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razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2017 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Is there a page somewhere that describes what constitutes a Rookie Coach, vs an Experienced Coach, etc? As it applies to the individual team races? I'd previously assumed it would be somehow related to CR... (It isn't important, I'm just curious.)

I just haven't been able to puzzle out the pattern.
My rank with Elven Union is Rookie, CR 144.9, 0/0/2, 0%
My rank with Khemri is Experienced, CR 144.63, 0/0/2, 0%

Chaos Dwarf - Experienced, CR 148.13, 1/2/1, 50%
Underworld - Veteran, CR 147.04, 1/3/2, 42%
Nurgle - Emerging Star, CR 148.75, 4/2/5, 45%

That last has me in stitches. I'm a rookie who is still figuring out what constitutes a good risk. The consequence of which is that actually dodging and PASSING are almost out of the question. (Elves baffle and fascinate me.) I'm no more an Emerging Star than Ceres. I'm just curious what formula or chart figured I was?
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2017 - 21:02 Reply with quote Back to top

under the help/Advanced Site Use:


https://fumbbl.com/help:Ranking
razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2017 - 21:09 Reply with quote Back to top

*scratches.head* I think that tells me how CR is calculated.
Is there another that describes when one receives the descriptions of Rookie, Experienced, Veteran, Emerging Star, Star, or Legend?
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2017 - 22:17 Reply with quote Back to top

razmus wrote:
*scratches.head* I think that tells me how CR is calculated.
Is there another that describes when one receives the descriptions of Rookie, Experienced, Veteran, Emerging Star, Star, or Legend?

I don't think there is a list, the exact formula for that as well as modern CR is secret.

It's a percentage I believe.. I don't remember how much it was... something like 5% or 15% or some such per level. There are some complex factors that determine rank too. The first few games are rated much stronger in CR and rank. You start on rookie although a 150 cr coach is technically above average and an average coach will drop to about 144 cr. So if you retain a higher CR you will automatically improve ranking from rookie.
Then in the mid section it will roughly match your CR but there is a shift value where you retain your rank. Basically the formula tries to keep you in one rank and will tolerate fluctuations of CR to a degree before it gives you a new rank.
But CR is very fleeting so you will most certainly still shift between ranks.
Mind CR and rank have no significance for any aspect on the site other than your personal indulgence.

Racial CR are completely indepently tracked CR ratings for your performance with certain races. Since their formula tracks a different subset of games of you and other people on the site than main CR, different types of CR can not be cross compared properly.
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 01:32 Reply with quote Back to top

all I know is that I can go from a "Star" to "Rookie" within about a week of playing Ogres in the Box or Ranked Laughing

Your CR and title will fluctuate wildly to start, but will settle in after a certain point. I wouldn't worry too much about it, better to concentrate on how to play better if you really want to improve from a Rookie to Experienced and up.
finsterface



Joined: Apr 29, 2012

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 07:49 Reply with quote Back to top

razmus wrote:
Is there a page somewhere that describes what constitutes a Rookie Coach, vs an Experienced Coach, etc? As it applies to the individual team races? I'd previously assumed it would be somehow related to CR... (It isn't important, I'm just curious.)


Tried to figure out the very same question, couple of weeks ago - this is my understanding (got it from bits and pieces all over the forums...):

The titles come from the star-player-points-table in the rulebook, so: Rookie < Exp. < Vet. < Emerg. Star < Star < Super Star < Legend.

The titles are given according to CR (overall and per-race), but not hard-coded CR-bands. Rather according to the CR-distribution on the site, so the title Legend is given to some top-% of coaches according to CR (i.e. with flings you are Legend even at fling-CR=152 in the box atm, because there are so few people achieving that).

When you play a match with a certain team in a division, you gain or loose CR depending on the result, on the CR of your opponent and on the statistical likelihood of winning that particular matchup (your race vs. oppo's race at certain TV). If you won the match, your CR rises by a value dCR - at the same time, your oppo's CR drops by the very same amount dCR. (Edit: That way the average CR of all coaches should stay constant).
razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 13:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Thank you all! Good responses. (Would anyone object if I were to take parts of this and summarize in the help wiki? Anyone mind being quoted?)
My goals in FUMBBL right now don't really revolve around advancing my CR or titles, but are (1) learn, (2) have fun, and (3) fill up my Ranked grid. (That last takes longer given that I spend more time watching old games and spectating than I do playing -- but watching an already played game takes around 20 minutes or so, even when I roll back to see how something was set up, and getting a guaranteed 90 minute window is challenging. Smile )
Cheers!
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 13:29
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

While the exact formula isn't published anywhere (a deliberate choice on my part), it can be summarized as follows (no specifics given here):

- Legendary is the top X active coaches for the given group
- The rest of the categories are simply percentages of (non-legendary) active coaches.
- Rookie and Experienced are forced for low number of games played.
- There's hysteresis in place to keep you from flipping back and forth between the bands.
- There are periodic updates that recalculate the limits and re-categorizes people into their current band.
- The groups don't "fade", even if coaches become inactive, meaning you can have more than the X number of legendary rank players for a given category.

At some point, I need to go back to this ranking algorithm and modify the low number of games played formula. It's not good enough as "Rookie" is both low CR coaches and also coaches with low number of games played. I'd like to separate Rookie out entirely to be only low number of coaches and have "Experienced" as the lowest actual CR band. Mostly a visual thing, and not incredibly important, but it'd make the system a bit more clear.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 14:23 Reply with quote Back to top

- What about adding ranking decay? Some coaches played very few games with a race, achieved high ranking with it and then stopped playing.
Ranking decay would prevent inactive coaches from sitting on top of rankings without playing anymore that race, rankings should be dynamic, not static.

- What about resetting the coach's ranking with a race to 150 whenever a coach creates another team of the same race to discourage cycling of tier 1 teams?
Some coaches play the strongest tier 1 teams at low TV for few games (to benefit from rookie protection and from the sweetspot), then create another team of the same race and rinse repeat.
The result is they become Legend with those races never playing them at high TV.
This is against the spirit of fair competition, because other coaches play their teams at higher TV, where those teams are weaker.

_________________
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finsterface



Joined: Apr 29, 2012

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 14:30 Reply with quote Back to top

razmus wrote:
Thank you all! Good responses. (Would anyone object if I were to take parts of this and summarize in the help wiki? Anyone mind being quoted?)


I think it's a good idea to summarize this and put it into the help-section (dunno how to, though). Don't mind being quoted, but feel uneasy since I'm just summarizing what I've learned from other more experienced coaches in threads or chats...
...I think you could as well attribute the help-section to yourself as you'd be doing just the same Wink Laughing

I guess for starters what's still missing are these points:

CR starts at 150

There exist (nR + 1) x (nD + 1) different CRs (per coach), where...
    nR is the # of races in R and B, the +1 is for the overall-CR for all races
    nD=2 is the numer of divisions, the +1 is for the combined CR for B and R


I.e. if you play 1 match in B, there are 4 (of your) CRs affected: B-CR for the race you played in that match, B-CR for all races in B, combined-CR for the race you played and combined-CR for all races.
finsterface



Joined: Apr 29, 2012

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 14:36 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Some coaches play the strongest tier 1 teams at low TV for few games (to benefit from rookie protection and from the sweetspot), then create another team of the same race and rinse repeat.
The result is they become Legend with those races never playing them at high TV.


As far as I understand, the sweetspots of certain races at certain TV-bands should be taken care of by the looked up winning-% of that vs. a specific other race, which is taken into account by the CR-formula. So you should still win much more often than other coaches *with that race* and *at that TV* in order to become legend.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 14:49 Reply with quote Back to top

finsterface wrote:

As far as I understand, the sweetspots of certain races at certain TV-bands should be taken care of by the looked up winning-% of that vs. a specific other race, which is taken into account by the CR-formula. So you should still win much more often than other coaches *with that race* and *at that TV* in order to become legend.

Still, you can be Legend with a team very strong at low TV without playing at high TV.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 15:16 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Still, you can be Legend with a team very strong at low TV without playing at high TV.
Well, if it's done right, you can play just about any team at just about any TV and achieve Legend status without playing the team at all values. Sure, you have to play a few games at low value in order to get to the high value, and if you maintain a high TV team your TV will fluctuate a bit more than a low TV team's will, but if you play 300 games with Chaos or Nurgle, there's no reason you couldn't have played 90% of those games at high TV, and your CR won't reflect your team's rookie struggles.

What you really should be arguing is that coaches should have to achieve a certain CR not just with the race as a whole, but within multiple TV bands, to achieve legendhood. I think that's a tad too much, myself. I think we should just accept that sweetspotting happens at all TV bands, and take CR with an attendant grain of salt.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Does anyone know if the new inducement system is reflected in CR points? For example if your opponent is flush with cash, spends say 200k GP on a star player and you can't respond that is obviously a much more difficult game - is that reflected in the 'points' you get or does it still use the old formula?
Zirgantz



Joined: May 30, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2017 - 17:43 Reply with quote Back to top

What could be a nice improvement for the future would be to take the number of games played into greater account : I'm not familiar with the math at work, but it seems that currently, a coach with, say, 8 games played with a win % of 75% can sit at the top of some races' rankings forever, while a coach with a win % of 60% over the course of, say, 300 games, will be ranked far lower, even though he may very well be the better coach of the two with that particular race.
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