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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok so Expensive Mistakes means you can't hold more than about 250-290k cash on a team
If you have more than that level it will generally be lost

So unless you need it to replace players (eg av7 teams) what's the best use for it?

You could manage bank by buying/selling to keep around 290k to keep a large but safe amount as buffer in case you need to replace players

You could use it, say a babe/card every other game, keeping around a 150-200k level which minimises wastage but still some buffer


Or you could fire players who got normal skills and replace them, to hunt for stats and doubles.

Yes, people have always done trimming and recycling players like this, eg firing skinks after 2 normal skills to hunt for +AG or +MV
I mean now, doing it as a way of making use of cash that would otherwise be taxed away by EM


So what's the best way of doing this, what player types are best suited?

I think firing 1 skill players is best so you're binning less SPP, but also means you might get a stat or double before you get Block, which is awkward on eg Bull Centaur

Some players like big guys want doubles for Block, but are slow to skill and arguably at their most efficient with just Guard,
and you don't really want to be constantly funneling MVP into them and then binning it, (MVP typically better spent on your blitzer positionals)


Werewolves seem a good target, they can score so get to 6SPP fast, they benefit greatly from doubles (mighty blow) and all stats, and the team often can be cash rich

Chaos dwarf blockers, to get claws

Any thoughts?
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 20:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I strive for 16 players so I can foul more and not worry about the attrition war so many others care about. Also I tend to go for 4 rerolls, 5 if my TV goes so high I can expect a chef induced.

If I'm still making money without the need to replace players, I'll hire some beer or bribe each match. If I'm preparing for a tourney however, time to hoard cash.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 20:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah I should have clarified this was in context of TV efficency
You can't really hoard much before you start losing more than you gain... about 290k as an average balance if you don't spend it

So if you want to spend it rather than waste it, recycling players with 1-2 normal skills - to hunt for stats/doubles - is what I was talking about
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 21:02 Reply with quote Back to top

When the new 80k wizard inducement is added you buy him every single game you can with your spare cash

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 21:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Right now, I take Bribes and cards.

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What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 23:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
Ah I should have clarified this was in context of TV efficency
You can't really hoard much before you start losing more than you gain... about 290k as an average balance if you don't spend it

So if you want to spend it rather than waste it, recycling players with 1-2 normal skills - to hunt for stats/doubles - is what I was talking about


I honestly think if you're striving for TV efficiency the same as you would in CRP, you're playing the wrong ruleset.

The current ruleset we have on FUMBBL is much more of a mish-mash of LRB4 and CRP - that is to say that while being efficient is still a plausible way to win, it's going to be easily outgunned by big teams with big benches and big rerolls.

Inducements are currently a lot less effective with no wizard, and even the introduction of the less accurate wizard won't change that - the bigger team can purchase him too to simply remove him from the game.

With that in mind, there's just not much point staying completely lean - even in box, after a certain point your potential opponents are going to be a bit higher in TV. We're not seeing huge TV teams there yet, but those at a TV-range where inducements simply aren't going to cut it most of the time are getting more common.


I do agree with you though that recyclying players is a valid approach - and imo, somewhat more creditable than spending on inducements every few games, especially because spending as overdog may produce matchups that the box scheduler/a ranked opponent would not have accepted. But I'd also be looking to grab a decent bench and the like as well.


On TT i wouldn't bother recycling players because that's what the redraft is for.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm
But R and B are still TV-matching environments.. why would TV efficiency not still be important?
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2017 - 00:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not suggesting you go pick pass-block on all your players, but what I'm saying is it is probably pertinent to grab a bench of 2-3 and a reroll more than you previously would've.

That might seem a bit backwards with potentially reduced attrition - but why rely on babes/apo as inducements to bring a squad of 12 back to fielding 11 when you could enter with 13-14 (and potentially buy the babes on top)? And without the possibility of facing a wizard, why not grab that extra reroll for more options?

There is now no "high tv cpomb land", no "wiz punishment" for being big... But there sure as hell is still the box scheduler matching you up with whatever monstrosity Malmir is currently building, or the now-almost-2.5MTV WMDs, or countless other teams who're sitting at high tv with no signs of fading.

In ranked? Well, as other people continue to build around you eventually you'll find yourself playing more and more lopsided games.

And yes, there are some races for whom this approach isn't going to be great, but that's what happens when a meta changes slightly.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2017 - 08:30 Reply with quote Back to top

But

R and B are still TV-matching environments.. why would TV efficiency not still be important? i'm not seeing it

If you have that extra RR, you'll match with a team who's got an extra 50-70k of skills/RR/etc
Smegish



Joined: Jul 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2017 - 09:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I prefer to have a bench of 2-4 players at all times for my SWL team, the extra inducements I give away are worth being able to field 11 elves in the second half, with my team averaging 3 Cas against a game and all.

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Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2017 - 09:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
But

R and B are still TV-matching environments.. why would TV efficiency not still be important? i'm not seeing it

If you have that extra RR, you'll match with a team who's got an extra 50-70k of skills/RR/etc

I guess if you're only ever playing open games and not tournaments, you can still do that sort of efficiency, even min-max as hard as you want. It'll likely earn you a lot of wins. This completely changes as soon as you enter tournaments (with the TW-capped Minors possibly being the only exception) or the high-ish TV area in the Box, since you'll then run into the teams who are just big (and "bloat" exists much less in this context, at least as long as you are still building a team around solid skills).

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2017 - 19:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
But

R and B are still TV-matching environments.. why would TV efficiency not still be important? i'm not seeing it

If you have that extra RR, you'll match with a team who's got an extra 50-70k of skills/RR/etc


Are they really? I mean really strict about match-making on TV?

I don't think so. If you're recycling players for doubles long enough for this to have any real effect in B, then you're 30+ games old. At which point you're open season for anything else in the draw - which is what I was referring to when saying I don't think staying lean is the right way to play this current ruleset: there are already multiple 2M+ teams roving box, and the trend (anecdotally, we've nowhere near enough games played so far) seems to be for teams to currently hold anywhere between 300-500TV higher than previous.


Now, if we look at your example in the first post of necro, I actually agree with you somewhat on staying relatively lean (I'd go ~13 players and 3rr tops), simply because the lino options are dire, ghoul(s) are an acquired taste, and the low-cost stars of Chaney and Setekh aren't bad at all. (And would add Doclystria did the opposite of this and shot for the moon in TV right at the beginning of BB2016 on FUMBBL and did/does really well).

But for some other races, there's literally no reason not to build up - eg. Chaos have crap low cost stars and beastmen are pretty decent as rookies anyway. Extra rerolls allow you more options on what is an ag3 team, and if you're feeling flush you might reroll some claw/mb blitzes...

A large element of what we were used to in CRP was playing the meta of the scheduler, not the actual game. And it worked as it did because most did it to some extent.

If the teams around your old team are getting bigger in size (and anecdotally, they appear to be), then by blindly sweetspotting a TV, all you're really doing is increasing your chances of playing down TV. Without a wizard. So I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm just saying there's now quite a bit of leeway in regards to what TV you float at - and I'd ebb on the side of being higher.

Options on the pitch/roster are worth more than options from inducements generally.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2017 - 22:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
But

R and B are still TV-matching environments.. why would TV efficiency not still be important? i'm not seeing it

If you have that extra RR, you'll match with a team who's got an extra 50-70k of skills/RR/etc


Im finding this to not be the case. At 150k the wizard was good enough to potentially nullify a score without too much effort.

As Ive experienced with my high elves, once you get to 2200+ ypu usually have enough skills, bodies and rerolls to deal with most of what youll face. The hardest games ive had so far have been Nurgle around 1800 but thats because of the inherent abilities of nurgle to shut down elfball and the saw/bribe combo.

I think the higher the tv, the less inducements matter because they just dont pull their weight against a well developed and honed in team, which at a certain point a 2200 tv team should be
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2017 - 23:45 Reply with quote Back to top

It's a totally different game at 1500k....

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What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2017 - 00:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Sure, but in the box, being 1500 doesn't guarantee your opponent will be.

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