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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 16:06
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As you may have noticed, the coach ranking (CR) values on coach pages are very different (or even missing) at the moment. This is due to me running a script that recalculates the rankings for all coaches on the site. This is a lengthy process as it involves reprocessing all R and B matches on the site (roughly 1.7 million of them).

The reason I'm doing this is because of some updates I've made which I am hoping will address some issues that have slowly been appearing over time. The changes are as follows:

1. Brackets have been reworked slightly.
The Rookie bracket is strictly for rankings where the coach has fewer than 10 matches. Prior to this change, Rookie was shared between coaches with the lowest CRs together with the fewer than 10 coaches. This caused some complexities and confusion.

2. The starting bracket for new coaches is now 'Emerging Star'.
This should coincide with the 150 ranking. Prior to the change, new coaches were in the 'Rookie' Bracket and artificially were considered below average.

3. "Upset" results have a greater effect for cross-bracket matches, while "sure wins" have a lesser effect.
This means that a coach in a lower bracket that wins against a higher bracket opponent will get a larger boost in CR, while the higher bracket coach will lose more. Similarly, if a higher bracket coach wins a match against a lower bracket coach, their CR will not increase as much as before.

The intent of this change is to make it less beneficial to "pick cherries".

4. Minor victories and losses have slightly less effect on CR than before.
A 3-0 victory has a larger effect on CR than a 1.0 victory. This is an attempt to incentivize playing for the touchdowns rather than simply ignoring the ball once the match has been effectively decided.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 16:52 Reply with quote Back to top

What is the CR for each bracket, roughly?

Rookie: CR 150, fewer than 10 games played
Experienced: CR?
Veteran: CR?
Emerging Star: CR 150
Star: CR?
Super Star: CR?
Legend: CR?

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Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 14, 2017 - 17:08; edited 2 times in total
Candlejack



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 16:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I am a bit confused. So now "Rookie" is for coaches with 10 or less games, but new coaches start as "Emerging Star".

Isn't that contradictory? Does it mean new coaches are always labeled as "Rookie" even if there CR would put them in a higher bracket?

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 16:59
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The Rookie rank is purely cosmetic. Internally, for CR calculation purposes, they're considered Emerging Stars.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 18:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I think this sounds like a good change. Anything to discourage 'cherry picking' and make the R rankings more credible is a good thing, imo. However, why not go a little further and say that the higher-rated coach doesn't gain any CR points at all, if the CR gap is larger than a certain threshold? Could even say that coaches don't gain any points for beating someone that is more than 2 brackets below them?

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Candlejack



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 18:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that goes a step too far. It would discourage people to accept/offer games and it is not always bad if a good coach plays against a bad/new coach. After all those games can help a lot to learn how to play.

Having those games count less is hopefully enough to discourage picking while still giving some incentive for good coaches to help others learn the game.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 18:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Candlejack wrote:
I think that goes a step too far. It would discourage people to accept/offer games and it is not always bad if a good coach plays against a bad/new coach. After all those games can help a lot to learn how to play.

1) Good coaches playing bad coaches is fine, but what is not fine is good coaches playing bad coaches over and over again;
2) Bad coaches playing vs good coaches improve if the good coaches are willingly to help them, if the good coaches just noob bash the bad coaches then the bad coaches will not improve.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 18:34 Reply with quote Back to top

So, beating a rookie 4-0 won't be as a good as an equal coach 1-0?

I'm not sure I like the points for TDs. It may encourage people to run up the score and really hand out beatings.

That could be off-putting to people who are not that good.

Assuming that they can still get games.

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Candlejack



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 18:39 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

1) Good coaches playing bad coaches is fine, but what is not fine is good coaches playing bad coaches over and over again;
2) Bad coaches playing vs good coaches improve if the good coaches are willingly to help them, if the good coaches just noob bash the bad coaches then the bad coaches will not improve.


yeap. and I hope point one is achieved by the current changes. while point 2 will always come down to the coach in question you can even learn something from a pounding.

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 18:43
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koadah wrote:
So, beating a rookie 4-0 won't be as a good as an equal coach 1-0?


Let's do some math and see:

A legend coach winning 4-0 vs an experienced one would give:

k = 0.52, S=1.0, p=50% (this assumes equal teams in terms of TV)
This gives an increase of 0.52 * (1-0.5) = 0.52*0.5 = 0.26 CR

Equal coaches, 1-0 result:

k = 2, S=0.8, p=50% (again, equal teams)
That'd be an increase of 2 * (0.8-0.5) = 2 * 0.3 = 0.6 CR
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 19:09 Reply with quote Back to top

In the old system, I thought team tier had an effect on the CR boost/loss as well. Meaning beating woodies with goblins earned more CR than beating woodies with dwarves.

Was I wrong?

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 19:09 Reply with quote Back to top

What if you're not a legend? What if, say, you're a super star or a star? At what point does it even out?

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 19:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Just guessing here..

Brackets:

Veteran
Emerging Star
Star
Super Star
Legend

Modifier for playing a bracket: Equal k=2
One below: k=1?
Two below: k=.52
Three below: k= 0.35 ?
Four below: k= .2?

S= Score modifier? Win by 4+TD and get max CR change?

If Legend coaches lose as much CR as a Veteran coach gains, will this promote 'Parking' yourself at the top of the leader boards? Meaning guys just refusing to play once they have entered the top 10, or so. Is that even a concern?

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 19:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Candlejack wrote:
I think that goes a step too far. It would discourage people to accept/offer games and it is not always bad if a good coach plays against a bad/new coach. After all those games can help a lot to learn how to play.

Having those games count less is hopefully enough to discourage picking while still giving some incentive for good coaches to help others learn the game.


Personally, I think getting an easy game vs a new player should be enough of an incentive, without needing to hand out ranking points as well to high-CR coaches for beating rookies. CR isn't the only reason to play in Ranked.

In Christer's example above, 0.26 CR still seems like quite a lot to me, for a legend thrashing an experienced coach 4-0.

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Tzij



Joined: May 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 19:28 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
Just guessing here..

Brackets:

Veteran
Emerging Star
Star
Super Star
Legend

Modifier for playing a bracket: Equal k=2
One below: k=1?
Two below: k=.52
Three below: k= 0.35 ?
Four below: k= .2?

S= Score modifier? Win by 4+TD and get max CR change?

If Legend coaches lose as much CR as a Veteran coach gains, will this promote 'Parking' yourself at the top of the leader boards? Meaning guys just refusing to play once they have entered the top 10, or so. Is that even a concern?


I think your hypothetical is more or less a non issue. Let's say it does indeed promote parking to stay at the top of the leaderboards. That literally means the coach can't play ANY ranked matches. It's not like most other online games where you can play another account, or on a different server. You could, in theory play box, if it's not tied to your score, or league. But any coach that actually cares enough to play games, will play regardless of their CR.
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