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Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 01:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello gals and chaps, it is without saying that bloodbowl can be a very fun game, but it suffers from a pretty big gap for multiple races when it comes to tournament playability. For this reason, I wanted to make a tier list, and in doing so also explain exactly why a race is at which tier.

Disclaimer: Bloodbowl can also be about having fun, and this list shouldnt stop you from playing the team you want to play. It's more for the competitive minded, or if your one like me who feels that losing is almost always less fun than winning Very Happy . Also, feel free to disagree with the list altogether.

First of all, the tier list per say. It's pretty simple really, it comes from data of Major tournament wins, finals loses and semi-finals losses, amassed by the great Pirigin in his "leaderboard of races" for tournaments. A win is 11 points, a finals loss is 5 points, and a semi loss is 2 points. This data is a bit outdated but in the end, except for big nerfs like Ogre and Khemri, I think this data is actually MORE accurate than the spiraling expense data, which made coaches min-max their team at 1800TV and just isnt useful in a 2400TV average tournament world. In the end, its lrb4 data mixed with spiraling expense data, and it makes a surprisingly accurate tier list. For an even more updated list, which include khemri and ogre nerf, look like 2 or 3 messages below this! Note that this list does NOT represent the power level of races at TV 1000, for example Norse teams are pretty much one of the best races for new teams because they have block all around, but they fall-off heavily at higher TVs. Without further rambling, lets get it on:

S Tier:
1. Orc - 202
2. Wood Elf - 181

A Tier:
3. Chaos Dwarf - 156
4. Dark Elf - 153
5. Chaos - 145
6. Dwarf - 143
7. Skaven - 140
8. Nurgle - 126

B Tier:
9. Lizardman - 75
10. High Elf - 57
11. Necromantic - 50
12. Undead - 43

C Tier:
13. Human - 28
14. Vampire - 26
15. Amazon - 25
16. Elf - 22
17. Khemri - 21

D tier:
18. Ogre - 11
19. Chaos Pact - 10

E Tier:
20. Underworld - 2
20. Slann - 2
20. Norse - 2

F Tier:
23. Goblin - 0
23. Halfling - 0

S Tier - Orc
First off, we unsurprisingly get orcs at the pole position and S tier. This isn't a surprise to veteran players, since a race's strength most often comes from the number of premium positionals they get access to, and orcs get a whopping 8 premiums. Black Orc Blockers(bobs) and Orc Blitzers are just a powerhouse, with Bobs holding(or more likely maiming) the line, and blitzers blitzing to the side and cracking skulls with might blow or the dreaded str 4 orc blitzer, at a ridiculously low cost of 80k(yes 80k for bobs too!) and str access for skills to those 8 positionals(yes 8!), and lets not forget av 9, Orcs are just bread and butter OP.

S tier - Wood Elves
Next we get Wood elves. Wood elves only have access to 2 premium positionals really, but boy look at them! Wardancers are the best positionals in the whole game. Starting with blodge, ma 8, ag 4 and leap, Wardancers are star players at 0 spp, and they only get better with more. The ag 5 Wardancer, with a 2+ success leap, can really end up making incredible plays, often jumping out of 3+ opposition players to score a TD and save your line from being blocked to death! Catchers were a bit nerfed with the same ma as wardancers, 8, and the addition of sprint, making them into 1-turn td machines a lot more difficult. but agi access all-around, ma 7 linemen and the god-like wardancers make Wood elves a truely S-tier team.

A tier - Chaos Dwarves
Next we got Chaos Dwarves, our first A-tier team, but it could be a S- really. Chaos Bulls are the second most op positionals in the game after wardancers. They have great mobility, str 4, av 9 and thick skull, and let not the ma 6 fool you, with sprint and sure feet, they almost feel like ma 8 or 9. The addition of CD blockers to block effectively with str access and hobgoblins to pick up the ball and give it to the bulls, Chaos Dwarves are both bashy and good with the ball with their mean running game.

A Tier - Dark Elves
Next we get Dark Elves! Dark elves are an old favorite of mine, being elves and evil and all, and it helps that their just a great bloodbowl race to play. With 6 premium positionals at their disposition and great linemen, they are a blodger's coach dream come true. Their 4, ma 7 ag 4 av 8 blitzers easily get blodge and then tackle or sidestep, makind them real nuisances on the field. The witch elves, with frenzy, also ma 7, dodge built in and jump up(!) are also great, being blodger at 6 spp and able to blitz twice at 7 ma from a prone position is really insane. Assassins are not really worth it and runners are fine, dump off being surprising good on ag 4 elves.

A tier - Chaos
Then we get the almighty Chaos! Chaos is not only a powerhouse, it's also a world of hurt(or casualties) for the opposition. With Str access all around, 4 mighty chaos chosen and the better than some other races positionals beastmen, Chaos really pack a punch. The block tackle claw mighty blow beastmen is an elf's, or anyone's really, worst nightmare. A +str chaos chosen is just straight up better than any monster creature, bar maybe the Nurgle Spawn. And while the beastmen being 6-3-3-8 on paper make them not look stellar, the same as a human lineman basically, the addition of horns(blitzing at str 4 is no joke), str and mutation access for ONLY 10k more(60k vs 50k for human linemen) really make them a downright STEAL.

A tier - Dwarves
Next up we get the bashy dwarves! At av9 and thick skull almost all around, and access to fine positional than can at least play ball a bit, there is no underestimating the dwarves bashing and blocking power. They do lack in the speed game, but fear not, a well-built dwarf team can just oppress the enemy into submission. They get slayers to deal with STR opponents like bobs and chosens, they get blitzers and runners to play ball, and their bread and butter blockers are just the bashiest linemen in the game, tied of course with chaos dwarf blockers, which are the exact same, and maybe except beastmen, but beastmen really arent linemen. They're monsters.

A tier - Skaven
Next we got the speedy Skaven! Skaven are speed incarnate, and are only a bit worse than wood elves because of the lack of agi 4 and agi access on their linemen. However, they make up for that with mutation access, Skaven blitzers who can be as scary as a beastman, and the never to be underestimated gutter runners. Let not the str 2 fool you, gutter runners, with their ma 9, mutation access and ag 4, are in the top 3 best positionals category, just after wardancers and CD bulls. If you can make skavens survive to all-star status, they truly become one of the best races of Bloodbowl.

A tier - Nurgle
Last of Tier A we get Nurgle. Nurgle is really like a flavor of chaos. They might only have less trophies than chaos because they are less played, but they have a truely worth their TV monster in the Chaos Spawn or Rotspawn, who earns his salary with the Tentacles skill combo with str 5, which makes the rotspawn a truely unique way to entangle enemy starplayers. Access to 4 chosen with regen and 4 beastmen with regen is pretty crazy, but the lack of apothecary makes you have to count on variance to save your precious star players. After that, rotters are pretty bad with the decay skill and ma 5, but you only have to field 2 at the start of the game!

B tier - Lizardmen
Now we have the B tier and a big drop-off in points. Nevertheless, Lizardmen are a pretty valiant race. With access to 6 saurus and the worth the TV Kroxigor because of it's ma 6 and prehensile tail, Lizardmen can really pack a punch when built well. They have to field 4 stunty, dodgy skinks, but at MA 8 and ag 3, the skinks are really hard to catch. All in all the Lizardmen team is a hard to play team I would say but with a high skill ceiling, meaning that a skillful coach with a well-built lizardmen team can be very hard to beat indeed.

B tier - High Elves
Now the next B tier and also a big drop off in points from 75 to 57, we get the high elves. The high elves aren't bad, but they arent stellar either. Where the Dark Elves get 6 premium positionals, the High Elves only really get 2, 2 Blitzers instead of 4 and no Witch Elves. What they do get is 4 ma 8 str 3 lion warriors, but without block or dodge at baseline and with av 7, theyre just not good enough to be as good as the Dark Elves. However, High Elves are still not to be underestimated, being easier to play than lizardmen, and fielding 2 blitzers and 4 str 3 ma 8 catchers is nothing to laugh at.

B tier - Necromantic
Next we have one of the most flavorful races in all of bloodbowl, in my own opinion, the Necromantic! With the Stand firm, str 4 flesh golems and the ma 8, frenzy, claw, av 8 werewolves, necromantics get 4 premium positionals, and the wights and ghouls are nothing to laugh at either. With 8 good or great positionals, they only have to field 3 zombies at the start of the game. Also, the combination of claw, frenzy ma 8 and av 8 on the werewolves makes them one of the best positionals in the game, I would say in the 4rth position. The Flesh golems arent bad either, but really the ghouls are a bit lackluster, having no regen in a no apoth team, while wights having ma 6 is a bit slow, their new str access makes them very worthwhile.

B tier - Undead
Next, straight up after the necromantic, we get their cousins, the Undead! Undead pack a punch with their 2 no-drawback monsters, the str 5 mighty blow mummies. With access to 2 wights and 4 ghouls, they only have to field 3 zombies or skeletons, like necromantic. However, while the mummies are better than flesh golems, they get 2 ghouls instead of the insane werewolves, making them overall slightly worse than necromantic, but still a strong team.

C tier - Humans
And now with another big drop in points we get the disappointing but valiant Humans. Hey! It's us! This is the Race I've probably played the most, and I can confirm how lackluster they can be. Their strength resides in their "cant complain about em" 4 str access blitzers. Stunningly, they cost 90k, thats 10k more than orc blitzers, who are arguably a bit better! AND 10k MORE THAN BOBS! Come on games workshop, we know Bloodbowl is a B game for you guys but we would want a bit more balance for our representatives in this game! Ahem, too much rambling. Humans get access to an ogre. Ogre are loners with bonehead. They arent that great, but theyre fun. Throwers are worth their salary I guess. Catchers are disappointments, at str 2, av 7, you cant really field more than 2 at the same time without feeling really bad about yourself. Linemen just feel better in a lot of cases. Anyway, at least they're not the worst Race and they can outbash Skaven and elves... Sometimes.

C tier - Vampires
Next we get the Vampires! Vampires have a ton of potential. But OFAB combined with av 7 thralls is really a kick in the nuts. All in all its not surprising they are at the same tier as humans. Vampires only start being a good team when a couple vamps get Pro so they can reroll their own failed OFAB, but OFAB going straight to injury roll is devastating to new Vampire teams. However, if you can succeed to build an all-star vampire line up with a bunch of blodge pro sidestep or tackle vamps, they can really win games against the "better" races. It's a matter of having the patience to watch your vampires chew through your thralls while they are supposed to block or score TDs when they yet dont have pro, and ag 5 hypnotic gaze can also be a game-winning tool.

C tier - Amazons
Next we get the underestimated amazons! Amazons are altogether not that great with their av 7 all around and lack of speed or ag 4 to make up for it, but they show the potential of all around dodge or even blodge after a few games. Even in the late TV values where there is more tackle to be seen, dodge is a very valuable skill. However, Dwarves and CDs straight up counter them with their built in tackle blockers. Zons can be a surprisingly good and even bashy Race, but AV 7 and lack of mobility really sacks them.

C tier - Elven Union
Elf! or Pro Elves/Elven Union. It can come as a surprise that Elven Union is this low, them being so similar to high elves. Two differences being the addition of sidestep on their blitzers and nerves of steel on their catchers for only 10k additional starting salary, and 10k for a skill is always worth, especially for sidestep. But what really sacks them in the end is their av 7 on their throwers and linemen, which they have to play 5 of at the start of the game and make them very prone to man-handling. They dont get ma 7 or wardancers for this drawback either like woodelves do.

C Tier - Khemri
Ah, Khemri, how much hurt hath thou delivered? Khemri got a nerf when Tomb Guardians replaced Mummies. It replaced their mighty blow with a drawback, decay. What was arguably one of the bashiest Races in the game is now a shell of it's former self only because of that chance, but Khemri is still playable I guess. ag 2 being the best you can get even on throwers and having to play 5 av 7 skeletons at the start, it's a wonder why they nerfed a team that was even easy to beat(but not easy to survive) when they had mummies. But Hey, GW is GW.

D tier - Ogres
Next we enter the D tier with Ogres. Ogres are really in the D tier because they've won a major once, and it was their only appearance above the quarter finals. Nevertheless, winning a major is no small feat, and it shows that even a Team full of boneheads but well built can win a major. Oh, and, they don't have loner! But really, all it takes for your well cared for plan to fall apart is a couple of 1s on your bonehead rolls in a single turn. Or 5. And having to play with runts as your linemen is a pretty big drawback, having low ma and being stunty and easily bashed around. Their major win was with goblins as linemen, and they could get more then 6 ogres. If there's a team that probably deserves an even lower tier now, it's probably ogres.

D tier - Chaos Pact
Next we have Chaos Pact, or Chaos Renegades. Now Chaos Pact weren't in the game with LRB4 so it could explain why they have such a low amount of points, but that doesnt mean they don't FULLY deserve their D Tier. Having their positionals with animosity and being as good as other's team linemen surely doesn't help. Actually it's an understatement. It's terrible.

E tier - Underworld
Next we have the E tier. With Underworld. I don't have much experience with them, and I don't regret it. It's Skavens, without gutter runners, and replacing their linemen with goblins. Oh, and Also their Skaven positionals have a drawback. lol.

E tier - Slann
Now Slann are a pretty fun team, but in the end they're also a pretty horrible team. On the surface they are similar to humans with leap and very long legs at a discount, but leap is not a skill you benefit from having multiple of, it definitely has diminishing returns, because you only want to leap with key players to make key plays about 2-3 times per game, it is a 3+ roll after all even with very long legs. Their blitzers don't have block. And that's a very costly 110k blitzer for no block. Jump up is good, and diving tackle isn't bad. But Slann suffer from TV inflation due to all those very long legs and leap frogs with ag 3, you really only want to leap with the catchers, and they only have ma 7 and str 2. Now granted the Slann are probably better than underworld. But not by much. It shows how much the lack of block or dodge on starting positionals can really hurt your team, and leaping with every frog every turn is just a disaster waiting to happen. However, all being said, if there's a team that deserves a slightly higher tier its probably Slann.

E tier - Norse
Next we have, the we get worse as we get better Norse. Norse is a very fun team to play at TV 1000, having block on almost all your players, except against Dwarves or CDs who also have a lot of block. But once you get higher TV and teams start having a lot of block too, your strength is nullified. And, unlike amazons, getting blodge all around is very difficult if not impossible for Norse.

F tier - Halflings and Goblins
And finally, we have the F tier, Halflings and Goblins. Really, any veteran coach with a cartesian mind wouldnt be surprised by this. Heck, Halflings and Goblins aren't even good in stunty leeg. Their best player is the Treant or their troll, and good competitive wood elf or orc teams DONT EVEN PLAY THEM. Really, those two teams are rated F, for FUN only.

Hey, we're finished! Let me know how much you disagree with the tier list, it be fun to have arguments running around. And let me know if you like it! I'm glad I could do this, for one it makes me steam off on how much imbalance there is in Bloodbowl. But anyway, although I definitely think Bloodbowl could do with a bit more balance, especially with a nerf to orcs and buff to monster creatures, humans, and vampires, as well as other buffs for lackluster teams, all in all Bloodbowl is more about having fun than being full blown competitive, and GW has really succeeded in that goal! Thanks for reading this far Very Happy

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Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days.


Last edited by Soulmask on Jan 07, 2018 - 20:06; edited 12 times in total
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 01:19 Reply with quote Back to top

" And having to play with goblins as your linemen is a pretty big drawback, only having ma 6 and being stunty and easily bashed around. But don't despair, it can be done! "

ummm... it's 2018. What ruleset are you covering here?

edit: sorry to go all nitpicky first up. a lot of work went into the post, a nice read.
Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 01:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah right I forgot they got snotlings now. Well, their tournament win was with goblins I'm pretty sure, but I'll edit it in the main post.

_________________
Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days.
Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 02:35 Reply with quote Back to top

The data I've used is only slightly outdated and dates from 2016, which means new races have had less time to compete, and some races have been nerfed. Nevertheless, it's still surprising how much of a correct tier list this "outdated" data gives out. Meanwhile, it's also pretty easy to update it to 2018, here's my take on an upgraded, more up to date tier list:

S Tier:
Orc
Chaos Dwarf

A Tier:
Wood Elves
Dark Elf
Chaos
Dwarf
Skaven
Nurgle

B Tier:
Lizardman
High Elf
Necromantic
Undead

C Tier:
Human
Vampire
Amazon
Elf

D tier:
Slann
Khemri
Chaos Pact

E Tier:
Ogre
Underworld
Norse

F Tier:
Goblin
Halfling

Here's the reasoning between the changes:
Wood elves are down in A tier from S tier, Nerf to Catchers make them have a harder time to 1-turn TD. Having the possibility to 1 turn TD is a very efficient tool after all.
CDs up to S tier, just so that orcs arent alone up there. After all, CDs were the first of A tier and really S-, and they really arent out of place in S tier.
Khemri down from C to D tier. Mummies to Tomb Guardians was a Huge nerf, they might even be E.
Slann up from E tier to D tier. I don't have a lot of experience with slann, but with ag 4 catchers, av 8 linemen and 4 blitzers with tons of skills, they seem out of place in E tier.
Ogre down in E tier from D tier. Huge nerf to them, replacing goblins with runts and maxing ogres at 6, theyre only better than halflings and goblins now.

And that's pretty much it for an updated list, and it follows the info I've put in the paragraphs in the original post too.

Take care Very Happy

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Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days.
Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 04:06 Reply with quote Back to top

There isn't Piling On here anymore, like you mentioned for Chaos.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 05:53 Reply with quote Back to top

There is some NAF tier 1,2 and 3 listings already. Though they are low TV based.

There is some odd selections there in your list. A decent rough guide but Ogres should be bottom or very close. Orcs are very good but I think you are including old lrb4 tournament wins there. But you do say it is based on tournament semis and finals so fair enough that you are basing it on something. It isn't actually about which race is best. Norse shouldn't be 3rd from bottom for example in terms of which race is best to use. As Dom mentions Chaos aren't great.

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A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 06:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah as I've mentioned this is for High TV tournament games, which didnt work that well for spiraling expenses meta. But now that spiraling expenses is gone, imo its back to this kind of tier list. Norse are one of the best tv 1000 teams, but when they go 2000k+ TV they suffer HEAVY falloff. Also I've put an updated tier list 2 messages up from yours that downgrades ogres(because they had heavy nerf) as well as khemri, and a couple other things.

_________________
Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days.
Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 06:13 Reply with quote Back to top

For chaos, its the opposite than Norse. Chaos is clumsy at TV1000, with no block, and only skill being horns or a big loner monster. But they get better and better as they mutate and get mighty blow, claw, and one sure hands guy or +stats, and finally at 2000+ TV they become monsters.

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Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days.
bram



Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 12:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Nice read, but some (serious?) mistakes.

1) Nurgle DON'T have apothecaries.
2) Wights DO have strength access these days. It was in LRB 4 that they didn't have it.

Also, I think Norse, Chaos Pact and Underworld are much better than you make them appear. At least in the hands of the right coach...
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 12:36 Reply with quote Back to top

how far back does the data go?
does it include LRB4? does it include CRP?

if it's just BB2016 then you don't have much sample size to work with i guess... so there's not a perfect solution
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 13:00 Reply with quote Back to top

It's an interesting list. My main issue with it is you derive the placings from Major Tourney wins and close to wins, then mainly describe coaching the teams as they begin. Perhaps a better title would be 'ranking the teams at majors and discussing how to get there'. Then at least the biggest problem would only be how out of date some of the data is.

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor ulli
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 19:46 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
It's an interesting list. My main issue with it is you derive the placings from Major Tourney wins and close to wins, then mainly describe coaching the teams as they begin. Perhaps a better title would be 'ranking the teams at majors and discussing how to get there'. Then at least the biggest problem would only be how out of date some of the data is.


Well, I refer to their starting stats a lot because thats what determines their potential for development. High costed positionals with bad skills are usually only TV hogs, while low costed bread and butter positionals end up also being super good in high TV. Meanwhile, low mobility and av 7 just sacks the whole potential of zons and norse at high tv, a bit less so for zons who get blodge all around but they still fallout heavy, and I do talk about the potential for nurgle, chaos and skaven to mutate and become monsters at high TV a lot Smile

_________________
Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days.
Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 19:49 Reply with quote Back to top

bram wrote:
Nice read, but some (serious?) mistakes.

1) Nurgle DON'T have apothecaries.
2) Wights DO have strength access these days. It was in LRB 4 that they didn't have it.

Also, I think Norse, Chaos Pact and Underworld are much better than you make them appear. At least in the hands of the right coach...


Thanks, I've corrected a lot of info already and I'll also update this!

I disagree for norse chaos pact and underworld viability for high TV tournaments Smile underworld is goblins with a bit of skaven with animosity without gutter runners... chaos pact is a bit better but is just straight up worse than better teams, I would say they definitely are worse than humans and vampires. Norse are great low tv, VERY bad 2000TV+, there has been LOTS of norse teams entered in Majors and them only making the semis once explains a lot.

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Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days.
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

This is so racist.
Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 20:15 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
It's an interesting list. My main issue with it is you derive the placings from Major Tourney wins and close to wins, then mainly describe coaching the teams as they begin. Perhaps a better title would be 'ranking the teams at majors and discussing how to get there'. Then at least the biggest problem would only be how out of date some of the data is.


Well you do have a point... It should have been named Race Tier List for newbies that want to win big tournaments Laughing

_________________
Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days.


Last edited by Soulmask on Jan 07, 2018 - 20:26; edited 1 time in total
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