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gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 00:07 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
But that's an intrinsic barrier to the game itself. If one of your buds was trying to rope you into playing TT, you'd spend 4 hours gawking while your bud does moves and explains them.

Couple that with the very real issue of specific things not being demonstrable because of their infrequency.

BB and Fumbbl especially really do reward those who are willing to give in fully to it. But making the convincing case that you couldn't live without BB is tricky.


The proposed playlist was just tutorials for the website interface alone, even before you get into "how to play Blood Bowl." And I agree, BB is a tough sell, but just because BB has a steep learning curve doesn't mean the website needs one too--the attitude on display here is "BB takes a while to learn, so it's ok if the website interface takes even longer to learn" and that's really not going to help attract more players.

(I'm not trying to rag on FUMBBL, because I actually like the site quite a lot! But thinking back to when I first joined it is fairly daunting and it's a long way removed from "click here, play game.")
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 00:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Igvy wrote:
To all that say this game is too compex for the masses.
i say it is much eaiser than dota or hearthstone. ..

Why is it so hard then?


I don't think BB is too complex since a lot of different folks from all over the world from different walks of life get it and love it (just thinking about the variety of coaches in NBFL alone).

As for Heathstone - I'd agree to an extent and say that while there are a lot of complex combinations and ways you can go with any given deck combos, hero synergy, opponent factors, there is also a huge huge huge plethora of information at your disposal to make informed decisions about what seemingly works and doesn't so YOU personally don't have to figure it out on your own over the course of months.

I don't feel this is the case for BB bar Wreckage's 1000 losses playbook (it really does give you a full scope of things to consider in one of the walkthroughs). I think that one of the problems as a community is that low level questions like "what skill should I take on X" is beneath the consideration of aged coaches while simultaneously, very few aged coaches can fully explain what they are doing front to back in any given game, and if they could articulate it, they certainly seem loathe to do so. I jokingly speculate that aged coaches don't want to give up the secret sauce.

I think BB isn't for everyone as much as I'd like it to be. I've used BB for personal growth since it functions as a metaphor for life but not everyone is going to dive into a game and incorporate it as an ethos for living Wink
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
But that's an intrinsic barrier to the game itself. If one of your buds was trying to rope you into playing TT, you'd spend 4 hours gawking while your bud does moves and explains them.

Couple that with the very real issue of specific things not being demonstrable because of their infrequency.

BB and Fumbbl especially really do reward those who are willing to give in fully to it. But making the convincing case that you couldn't live without BB is tricky.


The proposed playlist was just tutorials for the website interface alone, even before you get into "how to play Blood Bowl." And I agree, BB is a tough sell, but just because BB has a steep learning curve doesn't mean the website needs one too--the attitude on display here is "BB takes a while to learn, so it's ok if the website interface takes even longer to learn" and that's really not going to help attract more players.

(I'm not trying to rag on FUMBBL, because I actually like the site quite a lot! But thinking back to when I first joined it is fairly daunting and it's a long way removed from "click here, play game.")


Ah, okay, that makes more sense, thanks for the distinction. I was reeling at the thought of trying to condense actual play into less than 30 minutes of video, but yah, a 30 minute tutorial for just website use seems a bit long UNLESS it really does provide foundational knowledge that can be applied to all aspects of FUMBBL team creation and game finding.

Although my job has me making tutorial videos for our Web Based CRM so I really don't have a frame of reference for what the right amount is for a voluntary thing like a game site. We MAKE our employees and my coworkers watch all of the videos I do or they get sent a packing. A bit different Wink
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 00:34 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="Arktoris"]
koadah wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
koadah wrote:

Arktoris wrote:
sweep away the unnecessary rules. We old folks know the rules well because we were here when the new rules were invented and thus got to learn them in steps. But new folks are hit with pages and pages of rules and are expected to know them all before their first game.


Get rid of the rules and you get a horrible mess like Cyanide.

Arktoris wrote:


read what I said again.


yes, when I meet someone who clearly is new and doesn't have a grasp of the fundamental rules. I tell them about the 145 club. Provide link etc.


So which rules are the "unnecessary" ones?


ok, as you've mentioned, without the 15 minute disconnection rule or all games are expected to play through...fumbbl would collapse.

But how about say, "no team names in all caps" rule?

Would fumbbl fall apart if a team were named, "NASA"?


Well, I didn't know this rule. Not knowing it hasn't caused me any problems these last 12 years.

This rule won't hold you up more than a few seconds. I don't really see a problem with it.

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Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 01:07 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:
Guardikai wrote:
I have a suggestion that's free, fairly quick to do and useful to all new visitors of the website - video tutorials.

The quick start guide - https://fumbbl.com/help:CRP - is really helpful. It would simply be taking this and breaking it up into short (3-5 minute) blocks.

E.g.
1) How to sign up and meet the community
Two minutes to purpose of the site, creating an account, telling people there is a discord and to use the forums for help
2) How to create a team
Literally showing someone how to create a team and name them. It should include a few links/mentions to name generating webpages to help those who struggle with this. It should also mention there are webpages for strategy, and to join the discord or forums for assistance.
3) New coaches tips and tricks
The 145 club, again mentioning the discord and forums (drive this point home!), the strategy pages, other good sites to use
4) Different divisions and coach rating
A quick explanation of each and how coaches get their ratings
5) How to get a ranked game
6) How to get a box game
7) Leagues
Cool How the client works (aka how to make players actually do stuff when you open the java)
9) How to manage teams (after games, with skill ups, buying new players, etc.)
10) Site rules, especially what to do if you have an issue
Cover things like disconnections, being harassed, bugs/glitches


Not saying that video tutorials aren't a good idea, but the fact that you propose 30+ minutes worth of video tutorial just to get into the game really underscores how much of a barrier to entry we're dealing with here.


That's surely better than 24 mins on how to use the client:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL66e87BczVUBt-xkg4NyeceICWS6Sh1bw

Thanks for this sann0638 Smile the shorter videos are good

I never actually saw this. I suggest embedding the video or making the link much, much more eyecatching ^^
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 01:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Burnalot wrote:
I think the main problem is that new coaches can't really connect to the community right away. I think guiding them to the chat should be the first step in integrating them into the community.
This way people can help right away and the newcomer sees that there are actually people around here.
Everything else should come after this in my opinion.


I agree. The ideal thing, imo, would be to have a 'lobby' page on the site, with an integrated chat, which newbies could easily find and wouldn't require downloading a separate app. However, failing that, a clear link to the Discord chat on the News/Home page should be fairly simple to do.

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 01:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Roland wrote:
why not build GrodBot (TM) into the client? that whay beginners learn the client without having to worry about whining opponents and they also don't have to wait for games/being cherrypicked.

#Grod #grodbot #AIBowl


I am possibly a little biased, but I think this would be great for beginners. Being only able to play against human opponents is super daunting for new players just trying to test out the site and blood bowl for the first time. The AI client I provide does seem to have its fan base, so I think the GrodBot is something that would find use if integrated with FFC. It does of course require significant effort by Kalimar to open up his client to accept a bot player, and by Christer to allow such games on the site. I am definitely illing to spend the effort to integrate what I have with the codebase if it was opened up for that.

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RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 02:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
I am possibly a little biased, but I think this would be great for beginners.....
When are you downloading open AI and update this sucker with some machine learning algorithms?


Last edited by RedDevilCG on Dec 31, 2017 - 01:52; edited 1 time in total
keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 02:21 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Igvy wrote:
To all that say this game is too compex for the masses.
i say it is much eaiser than dota or hearthstone. ..

Why is it so hard then?


As for Hearthstone...


Im confused, are there games other than BB out there?

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 02:24 Reply with quote Back to top

keggiemckill wrote:
are there games other than BB out there?


Is there anything besides BB?

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gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 17:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Roland wrote:
why not build GrodBot (TM) into the client? that whay beginners learn the client without having to worry about whining opponents and they also don't have to wait for games/being cherrypicked.

#Grod #grodbot #AIBowl


I am possibly a little biased, but I think this would be great for beginners. Being only able to play against human opponents is super daunting for new players just trying to test out the site and blood bowl for the first time. The AI client I provide does seem to have its fan base, so I think the GrodBot is something that would find use if integrated with FFC. It does of course require significant effort by Kalimar to open up his client to accept a bot player, and by Christer to allow such games on the site. I am definitely illing to spend the effort to integrate what I have with the codebase if it was opened up for that.


I agree. Having a quick way for new players to fire up a one-off game with a premade team vs. an AI would be a fantastic hook, I think--let them jump right in and see what the game is about and then things like "build your own team!" become a lot more attractive.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 17:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I like the thrust of this thread. When Synn posted on Christmas, I got all nostalgic for happier (I guess I mean busier) FUMBBL times. I don't know what the answer is to the question in the title, although there are some good ideas here. BB is in rude health; there must be enough new / relapsed coaches going around right now that are interested in playing online for us to be growing. Sure, Cyanide will likely take the majority, but are there not enough for us to grow too?

I don't have very much to add - it's a tricky question to answer. On the technological side (client size, tablet play, whatever), I don't think there's much 'we' the community can do. Christer is largely the man there, any progress is his to make as he sees fit, or I guess, any help his to accept. I tell you what though; if we're relatively quickly up to date rules-wise when the BB2016 release cycle finishes, that's a chunky advantage over Cyanide. Hell of an ask coding wise for C and Kalimar, mind.

The stuff we can do is around creating content that sucks new users in. Be it tarting up the User Guide (our answer the last time the community came together and decided to improve the experience for newbies) or creating written or visual content / ace events. I don't know why we don't get more content traffic as it is, actually. When you see someone say 'Hi, I'm a new coach, where should I start learning the game?' online somewhere, the only namecheck FUMBBL commonly gets is Wreckage's 1000 losses playbook. I'm sure that's a fine piece of work (that I will read one day), but why don't the GLN, or tactics articles, etc. get more love from wider BB people? Is that content not as good as I think it is (other content that commonly gets name-checked I find to be of lesser quality), or is it just hard to find and / or poorly advertised? Events are something we can all contribute to. The Online NAF thing is a grandiose example, but if we can all keep chipping away at the other BB / boardgame people that we know until they submit to joining a league with their buddies, when they get hooked, they'll stick around. It might well be that the weight of iterative gains picks business up.

My 2018 resolution is to contribute by playing more. Every little helps. Wink
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 20:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Q for Pgoo and other NAF types. Have the fumbbl-naf tournies drawn more people to the site, and if so - have they stayed beyond the NAF tournies? me curious.

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ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 21:50 Reply with quote Back to top

I think table top players must be the low hanging fruit. For a lot of them an online game without the face to face and painting element of the hobby won't be for them. It can be an effort to get them to try it, but for those passionate about the game and who love the competitive aspect FUMBBL has a great deal to offer.

I feel League is the best way to get TTers engaged. Of those who stay, some will restrict themselves to the league, others will branch out. Unlike complete noobs, they know the rules already - half the battle won.

A few ideas to get TTers into fumbbl:
- run a league for your local community. I've managed to keep the NZ league going for 10 seasons now. Not a huge population base (16 players), most of them are from the local TT scene.
- advertise. Bring a pile of fliers for your fumbbl league to your next TT tournament
- free stuff. I got some coasters (dice mats) made with the DIBBL logo. Complete a season of DIBBL, pick up your free coaster at the next NZ TT tournament you attend.
- Discord! It's all very well to point someone at fumbbl, but making a team, getting a game started, avoiding misclicks, labelling players.... the best way is to talk them through it. The general fumbbl chat may be a bit daunting. Get a chat room set up for your local league, so people they already know can help them through.


"I hate fumble" - the words of TT league mate who was heavily into cyanide. He'd never even tried fumbbl before. When BB2 came out and his cyanide league started to fall over. He finally gave fumbbl a try. 5 months later, 250+ games later. I think he's hooked Smile


Also, it can work both ways. NZ Fumbblers have been introduced to the TT scene as well.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 22:38 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
Q for Pgoo and other NAF types. Have the fumbbl-naf tournies drawn more people to the site, and if so - have they stayed beyond the NAF tournies? me curious.


I haven’t gone to the extent of keeping tabs on people and / or amassing any statistics. On an anecdotal level, I walked a fair few newcomers to FUMBBL I know in RL from TT tournaments through how to make a team, use the client, apply to a group, etc. and observed more that didn’t need my help. I still see plenty of them playing online NAF events. Some of them have branched out into the official divisions and I see them playing (e.g.) RRRs and low TV pickup games, but that’s not true of everyone. We had 200 odd for the first NAF event and have 80 for the current one, we certainly haven’t retained every coach that came over to play. But that’s not unexpected; the first one was a novelty, and the sort of BB FUMBBL promotes isn’t for everyone.

To echo what ramchop says above by way of an example, I worked on 10-15 of my closest TT buddies for (in some cases) in excess of 5 years. Eventually, I got a league together on the strict understanding it was closed, low hassle and I would spend time walking people through the site as they played. A couple went on to play a few hundred games, a couple more became sporadically active elsewhere in L, one has gone full addict, the rest have drifted off. I don’t think that’s a poor hit rate, and it’s the sort of thing we can all do. I tend to be evangelical about FUMBBL in wider TT circles and I’m sure I’ve chipped away at people (perhaps an awful lot of people), but there’s nothing like herding a group of cats and banging on at them until they complete a league season. One thing can then lead to another.
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