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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 23:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Merging R & B would be Very Bad.

How will we then be able to argue that R or B is SUPERIOR to R or B?

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bancobat



Joined: Aug 25, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 23:40 Reply with quote Back to top

@motskari : didn’t mean to offend you, i didn’t say box elves are better or I’m better or it’s easier to win in R. I just say it’s easier for elves teams to build in R. Not because we are better but because we can get destroyed easier.
Maybe the mrt1212 example is better on the diff cas, anyway.

@AD : seems so
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 23:45 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
Merging R & B would be Very Bad.

How will we then be able to argue that R or B is SUPERIOR to R or B?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLPe7XjdKc

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2018 - 00:11 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:

Why does Box need to have its own capped minors? For all the reasons I've already given regarding competitive purity. Even for 1250 TW, it's too easy in Ranked to farm a team that is perfectly sculpted for that particular tourney, by choosing easy games that minimise the risk of injuries.


At 1250 & 1500 I'd think that Box coaches would know as much about min/maxing as anyone. Wink

Honestly, I think that people who don't have the time to build a decent 1250 or 1500 team probably won't have the time to get their tournament matches scheduled.

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Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2018 - 01:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
of being the most successful division on fumbbl

ahahaha #trumped
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2018 - 01:14 Reply with quote Back to top

TV optimisation in Blackbox? Whaaaat?

Surely no one would optimise their team's general efficiency in terms of TV in a blind TV-matching environment. That would, like, help them win and stuff. Imagine if instead of building a mega team for a major, someone just cycled players for the perfect set of doubles and stats at low and mid TV and then won almost all of their games forever after. Surely no one would do that.

Next you'll be suggesting people would monovate gigantic murder squads to get as many advantageously murderous mismatches as possible, just for, uh, so they won more.

Wait, do people like winning?

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 05:50 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
@Catalyst32: Everyone seems to keep talking about how we can get more games on the site and make it easier to get games. But, is the quality of the games not important? Imo, the quality of the games is driven by the nature of the playing environment, which is part of the reason it matters to me.

Quality vs quantity .. personally, I've found that the quality of the games tends to be better, on average, in the Box, without all the picking, ducking, diving ..



I tend to find ZERO GAMES most of the time when I have the time to look for them.

Only someone that is getting all of the quantity they desire has the time to complain for quality.

It's like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
The person not being FED or who is not SAFE is not into looking worrying after his self-actualization and self-esteem.

If I could get my full of games I might care about where the quality games are lurking.
Strider84



Joined: Jun 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 08:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Shameless advertising. If you really want an even starting point you can play the naf tournaments here
No ranked nor box preparation matches needed and still 100+ coaches battling it out.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 14:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Strider84 wrote:
If you really want an even starting point you can play the naf tournaments

Not even because some races are clearly more competitive than others.
On top of that, the NAF tourney rosters lack variety in term of skills and stats.
To really make balanced NAF tournaments the BB rosters should be redesigned from scratch with the aim of balancing them all at TV 1000.
Adding bonus skills/Star Players to weak rosters is not the best way to achieve balance.

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Jim_Fear



Joined: May 02, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 15:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah, autism spectrum disorder, thy name is MattDakka.

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Strider84



Joined: Jun 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 15:11 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Strider84 wrote:
If you really want an even starting point you can play the naf tournaments

Not even because some races are clearly more competitive than others.
On top of that, the NAF tourney rosters lack variety in term of skills and stats.
To really make balanced NAF tournaments the BB rosters should be redesigned from scratch with the aim of balancing them all at TV 1000.
Adding bonus skills/Star Players to weak rosters is not the best way to achieve balance.


Well not saying all 26 races are equal, but you all start with the same team value, and at least tier 1 and tier 2 teams I would say the matchups are in general not over 60% win rate for 2 even players.

So not like you run with your 1500 Ork team into a 2500 elf team where you probably have a win% of what 10%?

If you want to create a game where you can choose any roster and you'll always be even good luck designing that..

Apart from that you want to have a bit of a challenge for the good players to be able to boost having won a tourney with lower tier teams by overcoming the 40 60% starting edge with luck (and maybe skill Smile)
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 15:12 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Strider84 wrote:
If you really want an even starting point you can play the naf tournaments

Not even because some races are clearly more competitive than others.
On top of that, the NAF tourney rosters lack variety in term of skills and stats.
To really make balanced NAF tournaments the BB rosters should be redesigned from scratch with the aim of balancing them all at TV 1000.
Adding bonus skills/Star Players to weak rosters is not the best way to achieve balance.


Or allow adding more skills.

Currently, it seems that you can only add 9 regular skills and 9 doubles.

How about two digits? Wink

What about stat upgrades?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Strider84 wrote:

Well not saying all 26 races are equal, but you all start with the same team value

That doesn't necessarily mean even game. Example: TV 1000 Dwarfs vs TV 1000 Amazons (lazy example, I know).

Strider84 wrote:
So not like you run with your 1500 Ork team into a 2500 elf team where you probably have a win% of what 10%?

Of course, if I had to choose between playing a fixed TV tournaments and a high TV gap I would choose the former, still, that doesn't mean that fixed TV tourneys are even, they are just less unbalanced due to many factors (resurrection, no progression, low TV, few skills, lack of stacked skills etc.).

Strider84 wrote:
If you want to create a game where you can choose any roster and you'll always be even good luck designing that..

1) Games can be improved, especially if patched with regularity (something that could be done in 2018);
2) You advertised tourneys as even, you should have just said that tourneys are more balanced (or less unbalanced), but they are not even.

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Jim_Fear



Joined: May 02, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 17:16 Reply with quote Back to top

So now we're to the point in the thread where we start complaining that Blood Bowl (Fumbbl) is unfair, even though the game itself is inherently unfair, as it is based upon probability and die rolls. Well, this is easily fixed.

Remove all races, except for Humans, and there is a single build available:

Thrower x1
Catcher x2
Blitzer X4
Linemen x4

No SPP, no advancement, how the players begin is how they stay. No additional player or bench, no rerolls, no modifiers, and replace all die rolls with a coin flip, Pass/Fail.

Does this sound like fun? Would anyone want to play this game?

They worst part is, if this was how the game were played, some of you would still complain about the game being unfair.

"My opponent got six 'Heads' in a row! This game is totally broken!"
Strider84



Joined: Jun 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 19:30 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Strider84 wrote:

Well not saying all 26 races are equal, but you all start with the same team value

That doesn't necessarily mean even game. Example: TV 1000 Dwarfs vs TV 1000 Amazons (lazy example, I know).


Actually dwarves vs Amazones at 100TV a lot more even than 60% for dwarves.

MattDakka wrote:

Strider84 wrote:
If you want to create a game where you can choose any roster and you'll always be even good luck designing that..

1) Games can be improved, especially if patched with regularity (something that could be done in 2018);
2) You advertised tourneys as even, you should have just said that tourneys are more balanced (or less unbalanced), but they are not even.


When I talk about even, I mean somebody who has no time to farm up a team in either R or B can actually compete. Even if I play 100-500 games I might never get a proper WE team with an Ag 5 Wardance or 3 +st Sauri that are cruizing around from people who either played a shitload of games or were just very lucky on 1-2 teams.

Anyone can choose Wood-elves in the NAF Fumbbl tourney and has automatically at least an even chance in every game.

As for even as of you can choose any team with any skills and you have 50% chance, even with best game design that is not possible while still having a bit of variety. not even chess is even where you have the same 2 teams.

as for something like LoL they spend millions on making heroes balances and have millions of people and more or less are able to do it, but that is not even closely possible for blood bowl due to the pure lack of games played...
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