| Poll |
| What to do with the Slann Blitzer? |
| No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price. |
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29% |
[ 44 ] |
| Discount Blitzer Please. |
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25% |
[ 39 ] |
| Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block. |
|
11% |
[ 18 ] |
| Stop Complaining. |
|
33% |
[ 50 ] |
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| Total Votes : 151 |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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 Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 01:25 |
 
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| MattDakka wrote: | | ArthurWynne wrote: | | As things stand, it's part of the design intent that different teams have different development curves. |
And due to this design intent, the powerful races are overrepresented and super common, while the weaker races are rare.
I played 2275 games in the Box and met only 37 Slann teams.
With more balance across the rosters there would be more variety. |
I'm going to say this once for the next 12 months.
You can have wild variety or you can have balance. Your issue with the meta is the same issue that particular people have with meta all over - people figure out what works, play it, and inertia is built towards optimization. If you hate that aspect of a game, you hate people and what they do with their brains.
Unlike a lot of other games though GW doesn't change things with a weekly or monthly patch and you're pissing in the wind getting super wrapped up in what you think is the platonic ideal of blending variety and balance.
To me, it matters not if 20% of the teams make up 80% of the games because the psyche rewards of playing and winning the little lost orphans of BB is immense. But you have to have a perspective that journeys and narrative are a fundamental part of the game and get outside of your own skin for a moment or two.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?posts/24155355/
I also made a few posts on the Stellaris forum about this very thing. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %12, %2018 - %02:%May; edited 2 times in total |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 02:17 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | Malmir wrote: | | Slann are awesome. Such fun to play. Once my period of mourning ends for my lost str4 ag4 blitzer, I'll be back playing them again. Blitzers are awesome btw and jump up and diving tackle are actually very useful though I wouldn't take them through choice so to have them 'free' is very helpful. Bit like thick skull on dwarves. |
Welcome to the dark side. 
EDIT (to no one in particular): For better or worse, the skill access and statline is what you are paying for in buying a blitzer. +ag is twice as likely as +st, and costs 10K less. Look at a +st catcher vs a +ag blitzer and it's not even close as to which you'd rather have. If you do the math on your favorite elf blitzers with a stat or two and some doubles, slann blitzers come out pretty well at 3-4 skills. And can actually be straight up better and cheaper than some great "not over-priced" players on the top teams.
On the flip side, the blitzers are expensive enough to be a drain at lower TV, and they are hard to skill at higher TV. Replacing players on a crippled team can be a very unfun process for Slann. Having them 10K cheaper would not change things too much overall IMO. They are still going to be a really freaking expensive team. |
At higher TVs the marginal difference in base TV value for individual players or hell even cumulative costs are nothing. Oh, so you save 40k if they were 100k on a team at 2100+ TV?
:Wanking Motion: |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 02:33 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | I have an idea for a tourney that involves bidding on players to join your squad in an auction format. Might help people get a new perspective on value |
And prove that forum discussions could serve a constructive purpose?
HELL NO! |
_________________
There is always Sneaky Git. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 02:48 |
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| thoralf wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | I have an idea for a tourney that involves bidding on players to join your squad in an auction format. Might help people get a new perspective on value |
And prove that forum discussions could serve a constructive purpose?
HELL NO! |
I wonder how many times we could reference Reinhold Niebuhr in this constructive conversation. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 03:23 |
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No idea what you're talking about.
A BB coach has tremendous creative and imaginative powers, and his mind can transcend both itself (since he can make his own thoughts the object of stratergizing) and the game (since he can manipulate figurines to create new possibilities and vitalities of plays). Because a coach cannot find ultimate meaning in what he can transcend, he cannot find ultimate meaning within himself or on the field. This is why we turn to Da Book. |
_________________
There is always Sneaky Git. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 03:46 |
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This stuff just writes itself, doesn't it?  |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 06:57 |
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I win more with Slann that I do with Wood Elves, could someone please give Wood Elf blitzers some sort of price cut or a better skill set or something? I mean, 3+ leap for two players, what? How rubbish is that?
You know what other teams are bad, Nurgs, man. I lose as much with Nurgs as I do with Ogres. Come on, must be like 20k overpriced per positional there. Maybe give the Pestis Block! That'd help. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 08:48 |
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| Shraaaag wrote: | Slann lineman is too cheap, make it more expensive so the blitzers seem cheaper.
To elaborate: Slann linemen have the same cost and statline as chaos chosen beastmen runner. The beastmen get 1 normal skillchoice (horns) and strength and mutation access, and the slann lineman get 1 double skillchoice (leap) and a mutation (very long legs). This supports the first choice in the poll, that skill access makes up for the cost. Or slann linemen are too cheap. |
Saying the Slann Linemen get 2 skills is TRUE but silly when you look at it.
All that Very Long Legs does is give a +1 to Leaping.
And the team is supposed to be GOOD at Leaping... they are HUMANOID SPACE FROGS after all.
So... if seen CORRECTLY (ie MY WAY and I contest in the way of the designers)...
What they have done us find a way for the Linemen to LEAP at AG4 while doing everything else at AG3.
(AG5 Leaps for Catcher but AG4 everywhere else.)
It is the best way to make the Slann roster playable without totally changing all game mechanics around LEAP.
Could you imagine how TERRIBLE the Slann roster would be they had to Leap without that +1?
Or how overpowered they would be if they all had AG4 with AG5 Catchers? |
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Shraaaag
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 09:24 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | | Shraaaag wrote: | Slann lineman is too cheap, make it more expensive so the blitzers seem cheaper.
To elaborate: Slann linemen have the same cost and statline as chaos chosen beastmen runner. The beastmen get 1 normal skillchoice (horns) and strength and mutation access, and the slann lineman get 1 double skillchoice (leap) and a mutation (very long legs). This supports the first choice in the poll, that skill access makes up for the cost. Or slann linemen are too cheap. |
Saying the Slann Linemen get 2 skills is TRUE but silly when you look at it.
All that Very Long Legs does is give a +1 to Leaping.
And the team is supposed to be GOOD at Leaping... they are HUMANOID SPACE FROGS after all.
So... if seen CORRECTLY (ie MY WAY and I contest in the way of the designers)...
What they have done us find a way for the Linemen to LEAP at AG4 while doing everything else at AG3.
(AG5 Leaps for Catcher but AG4 everywhere else.)
It is the best way to make the Slann roster playable without totally changing all game mechanics around LEAP.
Could you imagine how TERRIBLE the Slann roster would be they had to Leap without that +1?
Or how overpowered they would be if they all had AG4 with AG5 Catchers? |
There's a difference between skill cost and skill worth. Skill value is either 20k or 30k (or unobtainable if the player can't pick it on normal our doble skill rolls). My argument is that the lineman has a lower cost when you compare it to similar players.
You are arguing about the skill worth, in that skills with similar cost have different worth. Worth is subjective and depends on the context. Example: dodge is considered a worth while skill, but when all your opponents have tackle it's worthless. The cost remains the same.
I don't disagree that Slann could use a boost, but the original post uses the skill cost to calculate the discount of each player. I wanted to point out the fallacy of of this by using the same method on other slann players. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 14:18 |
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| thoralf wrote: | Oh, Matt. My point is quite simple: asking "who cares about" usually translates into "nobody cares about," which is not very far from saying it's of no relevance whatsoever, thus useless.
|
Well, what I wanted to say was: I can find uses for Diving Tackle and Jump Up, but this doesn't mean that, given the choice, I would prefer to have starting Jump Up and Diving Tackle rather than starting Block/Wrestle.
The fact I can find uses for non-core skills doesn't mean I do care about non-core skills, but that I try to use the skills the player has because I'm forced to have them by default.
| MattDakka wrote: | | Now, since the Slann Blitzers are currently overpriced |
| thoralf wrote: |
According to what price structure? |
According to the price structure that ST 3 Blitzers must have a core blocking skill, Block (or Wrestle to make Slann Blitzers different) and that giving to a positional less useful gimmicky skills doesn't make up for the lack of the primary skill he should have.
If I want a knife, adding a screwdriver and a compass to a knife handle without the knife doesn't make the knife properly priced. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 16:16 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | According to the price structure that ST 3 Blitzers must have a core blocking skill |
That's not how price structures work, Matt, and I see what you're doing with the "ST 3" clause. We could rename Slann blitzers Slann dancers for all I care. Without some price structure, you're just arguing by feelings.
Team design is a different topic. There's a connection, in the sense that the feeling we have that a type of player is under or overpriced depends on the tools you have. Nobody argues that Cows are underpriced. Why? Because they are hard to kill, and because Chorfs have lots of money after a while. |
_________________
There is always Sneaky Git. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 16:21 |
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Cbulls are why the cdork roster is ridiculous and probably are underpriced because they obliterate the hole on the roster so fully.
But to prescribe changes based on my feelings? Hubris. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 16:25 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | Cbulls are why the cdork roster is ridiculous and probably are underpriced because they obliterate the hole on the roster so fully.
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The hole fillin' matters more than the price. What would making them 140K change to that fact? All I see is moar one-cow minmax Chorfs builds. |
_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
Last edited by thoralf on %b %12, %2018 - %17:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 17:09 |
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MattDakka...
If GW had never called Slann Blitzers BLITZERS and INSTEAD called them JUMPERS or LINEBACKERS or SLIVEY TOADS your argument about them needing Block or Wrestle as a starting falls apart entirely.
Why doesn't a Black Orc BLOCKER start with BLOCK?
Same goes for the Chaos BLOCKER when they used to call them that.
Sure... 1 of the 1st couple skills you add the players I'm talking about is usually Block or Wrestle... BECAUSE they are 2 of the best skills in the game... NOT because those players MUST have that skill right away.
Slann Linemen Blitz just fine. And they can't easily get skills better than Block or Wrestle.
IMO a Slann Linebacker is a completely useful player fresh out of the Box.
And he although giving him block or Wrestle is an effective way to skill him ASAP he doesn't need Block or Wrestle to help improve THE TEAM as much as he might need to take Guard OR Mighty Blow to help the team. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 12, 2018 - 17:47 |
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Let's analyze the races:
-Amazons have 4 x Block players out of the box
-Chaos has no Block players, but 4 ST players with GSM access and 0-16 Beastmen with GSM and Horns.
-Chaos Dwarfs have 6 Blockers + 2 ST 4 fast players
- DE have 4 Block players
- Dwarfs up to 9 block players
- Elf Teams 2 x block players
- HE 2 x block players
- Human 4 x block players
- Khemri 2 x block players
- Lizardmen have no Block due to S4
- Necro have 2 x block players
- Norse have 8-9 block players since start
- Nurgle has no block, like Chaos, but good development later
- Orcs have 4 block players
- Skaven have 2 block players
- Undead have 2 block players
- Vampires well are vampires, but up to 6 ST 4 players
-Wood Elves have 2 block players
- Chaos Renegades has no starting block, but underpriced GSM marauders and 2 good big guys with M access and ag 4 ball carrier
- UW have 2 block players
Joke teams, I don't mention them because they suck by design
- Slann have no starting Block or Wrestle, and are mostly ST 3. It doesn't take a genius to understand this is bad design and that having at least 2 players with Block or Wrestle since start would make them better and more playable.
No matter how the GW called the Blitzers, Slann need some blocking reliability out of the box.
The Chaos Blocker and BOB don't start with Block because there is a design rule preventing ST 4 player from having Block by default.
With Block or Wrestle even a rookie Slann Blitzer would be useful as sacker, you know, the synergy of Leap + Very Long Legs, is that hard to understand it and to understand that Wrestle (or Block) would synergize and complement greatly a leaping player and that the pricing of players is not always right because it doesn't consider the synergy value and the interaction of skills?
A Blodger Slann Blitzer would be better than a Block, Jump Up Diving Tackle Blitzer at 6 SPPs because Blodge would help during blitzes, when blitzed/blocked, and to dodge away from danger.
Yes you say, Jump Up helps to recover position, but that assuming the blitzer survives to the hit/fall, with Blodge that knock down/failed dodge could be prevented at all. |
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