Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 04, 2019 - 16:45 |
 
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Do people really think lizards need to be nerfed? They don't especially need a boost but they're hardly overpowered at the moment. In a short term league or tournament they are hampered by an almost complete lack of basic skills and for longer term leagues, seasons mean you will hardly ever see a saurus with more than 40 or so games because they'll want to retire and be too expensive to keep (at which point the lack of starting skills holds them back again).
Sure in FUMBBL terms where you can play ranked and not worry about wants to retire that's not an issue, but this isn't exactly something for GW to care about when designing the roster. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 04, 2019 - 16:51 |
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no they don't need to be nerfed. But they absolutely do not need a buff. They are a very strong team and consistently appear in the top few teams in any format, last time I looked at NAF, fumbbl and cyanide data, Lizards were right up there. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Aug 04, 2019 - 16:51 |
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well, since I'm a FUMBBL guy, what do you mean by wanting to retire? obviously we've got ranked and box.. is there some optional rule that you've seen most leagues use? |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Aug 04, 2019 - 17:37 |
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Seasons are in the latest Bloodbowl rules of a couple of years ago. I think some leagues here started using it. Check it out if you google the rules. Teams get gold to rebuy players, but may end up having to get rid of stars who are made more expensive. |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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Aug 04, 2019 - 17:51 |
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The introduction of Slann turn markers now makes it possible to field GW tournament compliant Slann teams again.
Just get your hands on 11 of these Slann turn markers, and paint in different colors according to position. |
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ph0enyx13
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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Aug 04, 2019 - 19:58 |
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| Faulcon wrote: | Do people really think lizards need to be nerfed? They don't especially need a boost but they're hardly overpowered at the moment. In a short term league or tournament they are hampered by an almost complete lack of basic skills and for longer term leagues, seasons mean you will hardly ever see a saurus with more than 40 or so games because they'll want to retire and be too expensive to keep (at which point the lack of starting skills holds them back again).
Sure in FUMBBL terms where you can play ranked and not worry about wants to retire that's not an issue, but this isn't exactly something for GW to care about when designing the roster. |
Lizards have far and away the best win rate in ranked and box since the 2016 rules came into effect. They are the only team with a win rate north of 60% |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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Aug 04, 2019 - 20:26 |
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| ph0enyx13 wrote: | | Lizards have far and away the best win rate in ranked and box since the 2016 rules |
Neither of which have the Seasons/Wants to Retire rules. |
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ph0enyx13
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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Aug 04, 2019 - 21:04 |
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| Balle2000 wrote: | | ph0enyx13 wrote: | | Lizards have far and away the best win rate in ranked and box since the 2016 rules |
Neither of which have the Seasons/Wants to Retire rules. |
In NAF tournaments, Lizardmen have the 3rd highest win rate. The new MVP rules more than make up for the seasons/wants to retire rules. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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Aug 04, 2019 - 22:22 |
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| ph0enyx13 wrote: | | In NAF tournaments, Lizardmen have the 3rd highest win rate. The new MVP rules more than make up for the seasons/wants to retire rules. |
The rules aren't really made for the resurrection format though. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 04, 2019 - 22:31 |
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| Balle2000 wrote: | | ph0enyx13 wrote: | | In NAF tournaments, Lizardmen have the 3rd highest win rate. The new MVP rules more than make up for the seasons/wants to retire rules. |
The rules aren't really made for the resurrection format though. |
Not sure that's true. There have been a number of people involved in designing the rules since the lrbs started and even to this day that are heavily involved in the resurrection tourney scene.
I would agree if you said it's not the primary design goal but I am sure it is a secondary consideration when making roster changes. Players like hefty or ooligan for example are perfect for that scene but add little to nothing in scheduled leagues for example. |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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Aug 05, 2019 - 02:28 |
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fumbbl is currently running a house-rule version of the game where players do not cost more for wanting to retire, but also where there is no CPOMB to trim the old AV 9 players now and then, and also where there is no aging rolls as players skill up, and also where DP is not +2 on both and does not stack with MB on fouls.
As a result, teams with a stack of old, high skill, AV 9 players, are better here than in the regular ruleset, and realistically better than they've ever been given other changes.
This includes Lizardmen, who are already very good in the default rules. Plus, people here min-max teams for a certain TV to pick on natural growth teams as they pass by, and Lizards, like Necro, are excellent for that.
fumbbl could use a default WtR cycle on teams. It's the only thing that stops them getting ludicrously huge now, or carrying legends forever. The current rulebook suggests that extreme star-loaded teams top out around 2000 TV, for instance, while fumbbl teams would normally carry another 30+ skills over that if you can get enough games on them.
It's not just unexpected, they put a lot of rules in to stop us doing that, and have for a very long time, because the game doesn't work as well up there, too many counters to basic skills spread around the teams. And here we are with house rules that let us do that anyway.
Which is fine, you know, it works, the game's good enough to sort of handle it, and you can just build a new team rather than rebuilding the old ones now and then. It's just you need to put like 80 or 90 games on a team without getting hurt too bad, to be competitive in the majors here. Which, you know, it's probably not conductive to new players joining in.
Most teams here don't even get 30 games. And not surprising, that is like a part time job. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Aug 05, 2019 - 03:09 |
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Interesting. That actually makes expensive mistakes meaningful too - without that rule, there were many teams that easily gathered million of gold which would have supported having multiple legends without difficulty.
However, there would need to be a 'season' for perpetual leagues, in order to have a timeframe to pay your wannabe retirees.
In addition, does it even work? I could easily see it instead simply encouraging people to play with loners, and save up money for the end of the season, just to keep their 3-4 legends around.
Then you'd end up with extreme minmaxing instead. You don't even bother trying to hire people past a certain point, you just run journeymen and legends. Spend money only when a legend actually dies/retires, and only to simply get more positional until one of them legends. Wood elves already successfully play like this - encouraging that behaviour seems even worse. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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Aug 05, 2019 - 07:15 |
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| tussock wrote: | Which is fine, you know, it works, the game's good enough to sort of handle it, and you can just build a new team rather than rebuilding the old ones now and then. It's just you need to put like 80 or 90 games on a team without getting hurt too bad, to be competitive in the majors here. Which, you know, it's probably not conductive to new players joining in.
Most teams here don't even get 30 games. And not surprising, that is like a part time job. |
Very well put. |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Aug 05, 2019 - 08:27 |
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Perhaps a rebuild every x number of games... say you play a "season" of say 15 games and then the fumbbl site locks your team, rolls retire rolls and then you "rebuild" in accordance to the rules.
The SWL runs a 10 game "season" for retirement rolls despite the actual season being 7 games. I think its a bit short for a perpetual sandpit like Ranked or Box, but it would be interesting to then have "season records" and people could shoot for perfect seasons in a ranked environment. |
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ph0enyx13
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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Aug 05, 2019 - 09:01 |
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The way ranked and box are right now, I feel like you would either need a third division for season teams, or to put seasons into box, but allow all box teams that want to to transfer to ranked or something.
Like I think there are a lot of coaches that like their big teams and we already have issues with ranked and box splitting the user base enough already |
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