koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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 Posted:
Apr 13, 2023 - 08:24 |
 
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If you play in the Premier League, you can also play in the Champions League, the FA Cup, the League Cup. etc., etc.
So someone might get an easy tournament game. Someone could also get an easy Box game vs someone who has only played 10 games vs the Cyanide AI.
Too many restrictions will just suck the fun out of the whole thing. |
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Last edited by koadah on %b %13, %2023 - %10:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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Apr 13, 2023 - 10:11 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Every day I learn something, thanks for clarification!
So, Box Trophy actually is not a Box-only-15-game-run as I thought.
Glad I never played it, I don't like logical inconsistency. |
It is different than you assumed, but not logically inconsistent. As mentioned above the name covers "Black Box only" teams, not "Black Box games only". You assumed the latter, but the former is not logically inconsistent because of your assumption.
Also, judging by the rankings after so many games you usually see the top coaches make up the top 10, implying it's a good way for a coach to prove themselves.
And yes, I love it and it keeps me playing on fumbbl. And I usually let one of my teams start in a RRR, which I also enjoy. Two birds with one stone  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 13, 2023 - 12:12 |
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The description on Trophy page
https://fumbbl.com/p/boxtrophy
says this: "Teams in a squad are forced into 'Blackbox Only' mode for the duration of the trophy."
This "Blackbox Only" mode is not clear. It's not "Blackbox teams Only", it's "Blackbox Only".
To me it seemed quite obvious that Blackbox mode implied playing 15 games in a row with the Blackbox scheduler.
Personally I don't care, because I don't play in the Trophy, but I just observed that there is some inconsistency.
Although a tournament game is not necessarily easier or harder than a Box-scheduled game, it doesn't try to pair teams by close TV.
It's not easier or harder game, just a different "mode" to find game.
To keep the competition fairer using the same "mode" (Box scheduler) for everybody seems better to me.
Alternatively, a different name: call it just "Trophy" without "Box", with a description like this (feel free to improve it):
"A competition where you play 15 games in a row with each of your 4 teams without choosing your opponent (be it via Box scheduler or joining a tournament)."
That would be clearer and would prevent wrong assumptions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that playing Trophy games in a tournament is "cheating", not at all. Just, it's better to explain well all the details of the Trophy competition.
For example, I would have never imagined that I could play a tournament game in the Trophy, other people could like to play a mix of tournament and Box games for their Trophy run, hence the need to provide all the informations. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Apr 13, 2023 - 14:43 |
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I do not see any logical inconsistency in the BBT and frankly I did not quite understand the reason for this discussion.
When you create a team for the BBT, the scheduler can also associate your BBT's Team vs teams in the competitive division that play in the Box but NOT in the Trophy.
So having accepted this fact the rest is a consequence.
If we want to be rule "purists" we should put the rule that a team that is created for the BBT should only ever be associated vs another team that is created to play ONLY for the BBT.
But this strict rules in a limited community like FUMBBL risk that you could never reach 15 games with 4 teams before the expiration date of the Trophy (there is a high drop-out rate (*) in Trophy which is a difficult tournament because it forces you to play Tier2 or even Tier3 teams so a tournament for true BB experts and ability to play on different races)
So if a team created for the Trophy plays out of 17 matches a couple of matches in the RRR I don't see where the scandal is
I look forward to the conclusion of BBT7 so that I can apply it to BBT8
Welcome the BBT as it is today.
(*) look at the last BBT7: 301 participants only 60-70 completed more than half of the required games 17 days to the end of the season, which means that at least 65% participants practically gave up; I don't think they gave up because the Trophy is logically inconsistent but simply because the Trophy is very challenging. Of course this
IMHO , is my speculation, and it would be interesting to carry out a survey. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Apr 13, 2023 - 15:12 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
Personally I don't care, because I don't play in the Trophy, |
Since you brought up the subject we would be interested to know why you don't play the Trophy. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Apr 13, 2023 - 15:34 |
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I know you didn't ask me, but I don't play in the trophy because it requires new teams. I like the (artificial and created by me) history aspect of teams, and am hopefully awaiting a day when the trophy might have a category for teams that have recently redrafted. I also dislike TV under 1300, and avoid playing it wherever possible. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 13, 2023 - 15:49 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 13, 2023 - 16:17 |
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Many reasons. I share Nelphine's ones, also, I hate to remake teams, I hate to play without core skills to handle the most common routine actions, such as picking up the ball, dodging etc., I hate to play without enough rrs for some games, I hate to play without some reserves, I hate Officious Ref and new teams have not enough Dedicated Fans yet. On a developed team I tend to have 6-7 Dedicated Fans, so, when that event happens, it's less likely that it will affect my developed team. I hate to find new team names, I don't like to use serial numbers because my teams are not a factory product and I get attached to their names (not saying that my team names are super imaginative, but I try to find some background-suited names, at least). I hate to be forced to play a subset of races I don't like on a Trophy squad. Last, I don't like to participate to a Trophy called Box Trophy where not all games are played in the Box with the Box scheduler, as I recently discovered. I like logic and consistency in things.
The Box (games found only via Box scheduler) is my own Box Trophy. It's a perpetual Trophy, this is its ladder:
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&type=blackbox&r=0 |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Apr 13, 2023 - 17:08 |
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Matt's TL/DR: I don't like to lose. I do absolutely everything I can think of to avoid it. |
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Join the wait-list. Watch the action. Leave the Empire. Come to Bretonnia! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 13, 2023 - 17:12 |
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Yes, that's why I play the OP Elves in BB2020, you spotted me! |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Apr 13, 2023 - 17:40 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Many reasons. I share Nelphine's ones, also, I hate to remake teams, I hate to play without core skills to handle the most common routine actions, such as picking up the ball, dodging etc., I hate to play without enough rrs for some games, I hate to play without some reserves, I hate Officious Ref and new teams have not enough Dedicated Fans yet. On a developed team I tend to have 6-7 Dedicated Fans, so, when that event happens, it's less likely that it will affect my developed team. I hate to find new team names, I don't like to use serial numbers because my teams are not a factory product and I get attached to their names (not saying that my team names are super imaginative, but I try to find some background-suited names, at least). I hate to be forced to play a subset of races I don't like on a Trophy squad. Last, I don't like to participate to a Trophy called Box Trophy where not all games are played in the Box with the Box scheduler, as I recently discovered. I like logic and consistency in things.
The Box (games found only via Box scheduler) is my own Box Trophy. It's a perpetual Trophy, this is its ladder:
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?
page=coaches&order=&type=blackbox&r=0 |
You hate many things including the fact that there is no redraft in Box ( https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4450701) complaining that there are too many "stat freak" players polluting the game (from which pulpit I would say!  ).
But for once I want to agree with you on one point: I agree that redraft is an integral part of the BB2020 rules and I think - consequently - Trophy - which is a tournament that stops after 15 games- well represents the philosophy of BB2020 new ruleset. Besides the fact that it is a tournament that tests players who know how to play different races besides the usual ones in their comfort zone (it is no coincidence that the Trophy's top2 winners are also two of the best coaches on this site: BTW huge congratulations to Elyod and Malmir: you are great!)
One can think once redraft would be implemented to have a Trophy accessible to higher TV teams that have already participated in a Trophy and/or allowing to access Trophy to teams with TV little bit higher as CTV= 1150 (a bit like in the rules of the next NAF World Cup in Alicante https://www.thenaf.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Ruleset-NWC-Alicante-2023.pdf), clearly avoiding the paroxysm of teams of CTV 1800 obviously being out of reality of BB2020 IMHO.
But these are speculations: I am quite happy with the Trophy as it is today and I look forward to the next session
However, apart from that point of contact above, I find your arguments of dissent very specious and I disagree with 90% of what you wrote. The Trophy for me is a very good tournament in which I see many more lights than shadows, and the coaches who participate in it deserve my deep admiration |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 13, 2023 - 17:53 |
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The fact is that, even if you play in the Trophy and your team lasts 15 games, you could face non-Trophy teams with more than 15 games played (some even coming from GF-farming games, the horror!).
If I play in a competition I want to be on even ground with my opponents. If I get unlucky I could face a team older than 15 games.
Apart from that, as I explained lots of times, I don't like low TV games, and honestly I have explained it in a detailed enough way, to the point that it's getting boring, for me and people here, to write and read it.
About the stat freaks: I generally have one stat freak on my teams, typically the ball carrier. I have stat freaks because, without Season Re-Draft implemented, other people can build stat freaks and to be competitive I have to build a stat freak myself. Moreover, I play only in the Box, while the stat freaks I face often have been built by picking easy games on GF, then activating in the Box. That said, I try to keep my teams max at TV 1600-1650. If I really wanted to play high TV teams with many freaks I would do it, but I'm not interested in high TV games because they are more prone to sudden TV swings due to losing a single very skilled played (not necessarily a stat freak, even losing a 4-skill player means to lose a huge chunk of TV). That adds some unwanted randomness to the matches.
If you think that playing with stat freaks is easy (since you never miss a chance to point at my stat freaks like if they were the only reason of my success) feel free to build your own stat freak. I'm not the only coach able to build stat freaks, you can do it too. Rather than bitching about my stat freaks you could build your own stat freaks and try to do better than me (although I understand that criticizing other people it's easier than actually trying to surpass them by playing). After all, in BB2020 rules it's automatic to have a stat freak, given enough games. So, it's not even a matter of rolling lucky stat boosts anymore.
So, if you think that stat freak means easy win, prove it by building a stat freak yourself and becoming top 1 with a race you play in the Box.
Otherwise it's just yapping.
About the Season Re-Draft and BB2020 rules: with Season Re-Draft implemented the top tier 1 teams just get better and the tier 2 teams just get worse.
So, Season Re-Draft is not the perfect way to play BB either.
Just it reduces the range of playable races, because some rosters are not good without some development.
Vampires with Re-Draft are even worse, Lizardmen, Chaos, Nurgle, Khorne too.
So, worshipping Season Re-Draft like the Holy Grail of BB balance just makes me smile.
Hard cap and better roster design are the way to improve the overall balance.
Last: it's fine that you disagree with me, no problem with that. Everybody has personal gaming preferences and tastes. Forums are made for debate, if everybody agreed there would be no debate.
That said, I never said that Trophy was a bad tournament and I never said that participating coaches are bad ones, I just said that I don't like it and I explained why providing my own reasons.
You asked, I replied, that's it. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %13, %2023 - %18:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 13, 2023 - 18:32 |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Apr 13, 2023 - 18:56 |
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Matt, your arguments could use a LOT less I's. Like, a WHOLE lot less. Your attitude makes everybody feel like you are only focused in tailoring Fumbbl to your specific desires, even when those desires are only theoretical (you don't play the Trophy but you still take the time to keep this thread going just because you want everybody to hear "Matt is right"). This is annoying as hell to a lot of people, as you probably noticed. The fact that you don't care is the second annoying thing about it. Stating an opinion is fine. Hammering it down everybody's throat over and over and over and refusing to let it go is just insufferable.
That said, you have a point. I too wouldnt have thought that teams in the trophy could also play outside it and make those games count. It is counterintuitive.
Still, I am perfectly fine with the choice because I 100% agree with what RDaneel said. Very few coaches complete the Box Trophy Gauntlet with their squads. There's no reason to put additional game limitations to it. Consistency is nice, but a larger games pool is a hundred times more preferable. |
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Last edited by JanMattys on %b %13, %2023 - %21:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 13, 2023 - 19:06 |
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The fact I don't personally care about a thing doesn't mean I should not point at its inconsistency, because I do care about logic. Also, I'm not hammering it down everybody's throat because, at end of the day, I don't play in the Trophy so it won't make a difference for me.
I was just honestly surprised that Box Trophy games could be from tournaments as well. I don't want to hear: "Matt is right" either, as I said, I don't care.
Just, since some people were surprised like me that Box Trophy games could be played outside it, I suggested to change the Box Trophy name and/or description.
That way everybody would be aware of that. For example, a Trophy Box coach not able to find games via Box scheduler due to very low TV could join a tournament.
This is far from wanting to hear people say: "Matt is right". It's just trying to be constructive.
By adding a better description/different Trophy name we can have more games and consistency as well.
There is a larger pool of games if people know fully how to play the Trophy. |
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