RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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 Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 13:39 |
 
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| moph wrote: |
The Law dodges the question of when and how to use the time out button.
But there is this:
"Unless you state otherwise, you are expected to be able to play for 90 minutes."
90 minutes would be under 3 min turns in average. |
totally agree
yes this open to several option: you can play most of turn in 2-3 minutes (consider some turns take maybe 30 seconds when there is a turnover) and take 5-6 minutes for a very complicated turn.
I don't find anything scandalous about it if someone exceeds 4 minutes only once in a game . |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 13:48 |
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| RDaneel wrote: | | moph wrote: |
The Law dodges the question of when and how to use the time out button.
But there is this:
"Unless you state otherwise, you are expected to be able to play for 90 minutes."
90 minutes would be under 3 min turns in average. |
totally agree
yes this open to several option: you can play most of turn in 2-3 minutes (consider some turns take maybe 30 seconds when there is a turnover) and take 5-6 minutes for a very complicated turn.
I don't find anything scandalous about it if someone exceeds 4 minutes only once in a game . |
It is not "scandalous" it is just the rule.  |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 13:51 |
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| koadah wrote: | | RDaneel wrote: |
Where is it written that if you can't finish one turn in 4 minutes you are a failure?
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Spence did NOT say "you are a failure".
He said "you've failed to do it."
That is very different.
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shame on me in this case: i misinterpretate the english word, will amend |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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 Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 14:25 |
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I'm actually not behind this "I sometimes need more time for a complicated turn" thing. For me BB is not a puzzle game where you try to find the best solution to a given problem but a sport simulation where you must make decisions under time pressure. (but GW removed the time pressure from the rules, so it became a less thematic game for me in that regard).
But anyway I for now just play in private Leauge where time out is used relentlessly as agreed on.
I totaly understand that this doesn't work for an open play environment where you dont know your oppo. But going back to the Question of the OP : I don't like the idea of a time bank, because I don't think you should get more time for more complicated turns. And if you need more time for not game related disturbannces etc. there could be a different solution like a pause function. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 14:50 |
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| moph wrote: | | For me BB is not a puzzle game where you try to find the best solution to a given problem but a sport simulation where you must make decisions under time pressure. (but GW removed the time pressure from the rules, so it became a less thematic game for me in that regard). |
BB is at he basis is a miniatures board game fantasy mixed with a sports simulation.
Time is no more a determining factor (it was in 1996 but then removed). Should be adjusted just to avoid excessive losses and make matches manageable in an hour and a half. It should not be a blade that drops like a guillotine
If we want to keep the analogy with "sports simulation" and take Rugby which is the closest game to BB, the time does not expire at the 40th minute but it expires when the last play ends after the 40th minute. Maybe you are at the last scrum near the goal and you can be there even some minutes to be able to push the ball. Even in soccer usually the referee lets the last action end.
You can define variations like "Blitz!" as badger89 proposed - like in Chess exists.. - but in general the game lasts around 90 minutes and in tournaments with the OT even two hours.
other thing: misclicks. The misclick on Fumbbl is catastrophic. Sometimes on delicate turns to avoid a misclick (which in TT doesn't exist) you have to play CAREFULLY, select the player carefully , select the move with the keypad and then pay attention to where you place the mouse.
And maybe you got to the 3-minute mark for a variety of reasons and in your haste you miss a move causing a mummy to dodge at 5+. Honestly it's a game ruined for nothing |
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badger89
Joined: Jun 03, 2014
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Jun 20, 2023 - 15:36 |
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everyone would make the 5+ dodge with a mummy if playing me haha 😂 |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 15:41 |
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| RDaneel wrote: | | If we want to keep the analogy with "sports simulation" and take Rugby which is the closest game to BB, the time does not expire at the 40th minute but it expires when the last play ends after the 40th minute. Maybe you are at the last scrum near the goal and you can be there even some minutes to be able to push the ball. Even in soccer usually the referee lets the last action end. |
What I mean is not about how real life sports handle the clock.
But how a limited turn time as a game mechanism is a way to simulate that on the pitch the players don't have much time to think about where would be the best place to go, what would be the best action to take etc. This is true for most team ball sports: you have to decide intuitively and fast what to do on the field. The opposing players are coming after you, it is just not possible to stand with the ball and think about what to do next.
If the game design goal would be to simulate this, a limited turn time without a time bank would be the way to go. |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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Jun 20, 2023 - 15:51 |
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| RDaneel wrote: | | Time is no more a determining factor (it was in 1996 but then removed). |
4 Minute turns where still in the LRB6 rules ed. in 2010.
First removed with the 2016 edition. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jun 20, 2023 - 15:55 |
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| moph wrote: | | RDaneel wrote: | | If we want to keep the analogy with "sports simulation" and take Rugby which is the closest game to BB, the time does not expire at the 40th minute but it expires when the last play ends after the 40th minute. Maybe you are at the last scrum near the goal and you can be there even some minutes to be able to push the ball. Even in soccer usually the referee lets the last action end. |
What I mean is not about how real life sports handle the clock.
But how a limited turn time as a game mechanism is a way to simulate that on the pitch the players don't have much time to think about where would be the best place to go, what would be the best action to take etc. This is true for most team ball sports: you have to decide intuitively and fast what to do on the field. The opposing players are coming after you, it is just not possible to stand with the ball and think about what to do next.
If the game design goal would be to simulate this, a limited turn time without a time bank would be the way to go. |
None of that is really relevant. If a game is going to be played competitively then some kind of time limit makes sense.
The issue with Blood Bowl is that many people don't play it that competitively. Even in the Competitive division.
The reality is that many people play there mainly because it is the quickest place to get a game.
The fact that they play there helps to make it the fastest place to get a game.
So, it is a matter compromise. if you want to be "proper hardcore", some people will pull out and everyone else will have to wait that bit longer and play the same coaches more often.
IMO. That is why you're better off keeping it the way it is.
Not perfect, but basically works for everyone. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 15:58 |
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| moph wrote: | | RDaneel wrote: | | Time is no more a determining factor (it was in 1996 but then removed). |
4 Minute turns where still in the LRB6 rules ed. in 2010.
First removed with the 2016 edition. |
Agreed. However, it's 7 years that it's gone
Just as I agree with maintaining limited turn time. I am not among those who want to abolish the timeout button altogether. I'm just saying that even in real life sports there are phases of the game that can last a little longer for so many reasons. So the time budget you can spend in my opinion is a good representation of a sports simulation game. The automatic timeout (or the hard timeout : so press the button as soon as it pop up) that falls like a guillotine does not properly simulate a sports simulation. |
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Sharkrudi
Joined: Dec 19, 2011
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Jun 20, 2023 - 20:57 |
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it's like bb3 in fact |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 21:57 |
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A big part of the time out issue is that many people don't expect it. If it were automatic then people would expect it and would play faster.
The time out ambiguity is a problem and should be removed, as suggested in the first post of the thread. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Jun 20, 2023 - 22:18 |
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Bad poll, no pie option.
Nothing new.
just.
let.
die. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2023 - 22:52 |
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| Chingis wrote: | | I think the basic problem is that it's an attempt at trying to think of absolute technical solutions to what is a social problem. Those never work. |
YES.
The swiss cheese model can result in new errors resulting from the slices themselves. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 21, 2023 - 16:26 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | A big part of the time out issue is that many people don't expect it. If it were automatic then people would expect it and would play faster.
The time out ambiguity is a problem and should be removed, as suggested in the first post of the thread. |
Rules wise that means removing the chance to timeout, not making it automatic.
It is interesting that the obvious solution is the one you like and not the official one. You are biased and you sound like a broken record trying to present your option as the only reasonable one, over and over and over till everybody forget it's a lie.
First, Fumbbl has gone on for 20 years without the need for an auto-timeout, so it's not really a problem, more like a mild nuisance. Second, there's multiple ways to address this, many of which pertain to social behaviour. And you ask for a technical change (which would take away time from the real issues and would impact on the habits of quite a few fumbblers) just because you can't be bothered.
I am not advocating removing the thing altogether but this must be said.
Koadah and Chingis make very good points, btw. |
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