FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

JackassRampant

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Posted: Jan 07, 2024 - 21:02

Wouldn't it be lovely if they removed the equivocation? Perhaps if "moving" and "blocking" were maneuvers you did during your "Move" and "Block" and "Blitz" actions, we wouldn't have so much confusion.

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Javark

Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Posted: Jan 07, 2024 - 21:19

Rags wrote:

Haven't seen this level of nerd overthink in a while! Candlejack and Tussock are right of course. It's simple: Jump negates the -3 move penalty for standing up on a Blitz, Fourl, Hand Off, Move, or Pass action. The Block part of any Blitz action costs 1 square of movemment as normal. Whether this is at start, end or middle of Blitz is immaterial. There's nothing to think about, just stand your guy up and do your Move/Blitz/Pass/whatever as normal, with player's listed MA, no penalty.

The only action that Jump Up has any different effect on is a straight Block action. Normally blocking isn't allowed after standing up or any other kind of move, but Jump Up allows an AG test to Block from Prone position. If you declare the Block and pass the AG test, stand your player up and make your Block. If you declare Block and fail AG test, player activation ends. That's all there is to it.

Thanks for the feedback. This is, of course, the general understanding and to be honest I would have never interpreted it any different till... I received this surprise in the league I am playing...

Javark

Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Posted: Jan 07, 2024 - 21:23

JackassRampant wrote:

Wouldn't it be lovely if they removed the equivocation? Perhaps if "moving" and "blocking" were maneuvers you did during your "Move" and "Block" and "Blitz" actions, we wouldn't have so much confusion.

I was also thinking that saying that the Blitz Action is composed of a Move Action and a Block Action, any time the Block action is mentioned, there's the risk that automatically anything using it will be affected. Possibly, as you said, defining separate concepts like Block Action and Block Maneuver, there would be no ambiguity when rules referred to either of them.

tussock

Joined: May 29, 2011

Posted: Jan 07, 2024 - 23:45

Using naturally readable terms is fairly important in game docs.

Having a Block Action be a thing where you can say you blocked someone, it's nice. To block, blocking, the act of blocking, the block action.

And during a blitz action, where you can say you blitzed someone, well, it is mostly the same as a block action, plus a move. I can see how they got the wording they did.

Now, they could in future, say, call them standing blocks, and a blitz block, perhaps, with block being the general term. Then skills could apply to blocks, or to standing blocks, or to blitz blocks. Where a standing block gives you a block, and a blitz block also gives you a block.

That's more amenable to the sort of rules they're using, without being tortured special phrases or lots of "during a block action on it's own but not as part of a blitz action" kind of garbage text.

And you could still say you throw a lot of blocks, even though they're "standing blocks", because you make it explicit that standing blocks give you a block, and the blitz block gives you a block. Then during a blitz! kickoff, you get some moves, a TTM, and a blitz block, and it still all follows nicely.

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ben_awesome

Joined: May 11, 2016

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 00:20

or you could play in a league with less rule lawyer types that suck the fun out of the game to give them an advantage using their interpretation of the rules to your disadvantage.

ben_awesome

Joined: May 11, 2016

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 01:33

ben_awesome wrote:

Brawler excludes the Blitz action block, as did grab (to a certain extent it behaves differently in a blitz than on a normal block), multiblock doesn't work on a blitz etc.

I think that this shows that skills differentiate between actions (block and blitz) and that blitz is a blitz not a move block or block move or move block move.

Javark

Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 11:24

ben_awesome wrote:

or you could play in a league with less rule lawyer types that suck the fun out of the game to give them an advantage using their interpretation of the rules to your disadvantage.

The player that raised the point was playing Norse, so they are nerfed even more by this interpretation. Imagine performing such agility check at 3+...

Javark

Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 11:31

ben_awesome wrote:

Brawler excludes the Blitz action block, as did grab (to a certain extent it behaves differently in a blitz than on a normal block), multiblock doesn't work on a blitz etc.

I think that this shows that skills differentiate between actions (block and blitz) and that blitz is a blitz not a move block or block move or move block move.

Actually, it's the other way round:
Brawler
When this player performs a Block action on its own (but not as part of a Blitz action) [...]

while
Jump Up
[...]
Additionally, if this player is Prone when activated, they may attempt to Jump Up and perform the Block action.

---

Given the definitions above, it is even clearer now that the ruler is normally already using the ugly "(but not as part of a Blitz action)" part, so the restrictive interpretation of Jump Up for the Blitz action is even more valid...

Of course, since the Move action is already part of the Blitz action, all the arguments above are still valid for me, but the ambiguity is definitely there and my heart is lifted now...

Looking forward to reading an answer in the FAQ xD

EinVoegleinImWind

Joined: May 31, 2023

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 15:16

Javark wrote:

ben_awesome wrote:

or you could play in a league with less rule lawyer types that suck the fun out of the game to give them an advantage using their interpretation of the rules to your disadvantage.

The player that raised the point was playing Norse, so they are nerfed even more by this interpretation. Imagine performing such agility check at 3+...

Jump Up gives you a +1 on the agility roll. So for Norse Berserkers (who start with Jump Up) it would be 2+ not 3+.

Javark

Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 16:53

EinVoegleinImWind wrote:

Javark wrote:

ben_awesome wrote:

or you could play in a league with less rule lawyer types that suck the fun out of the game to give them an advantage using their interpretation of the rules to your disadvantage.

The player that raised the point was playing Norse, so they are nerfed even more by this interpretation. Imagine performing such agility check at 3+...

Jump Up gives you a +1 on the agility roll. So for Norse Berserkers (who start with Jump Up) it would be 2+ not 3+.

Oops my bad, thanks for fixing it. But since you are there... 2+ Agi players like Dark Elves would still roll a 2+ since a natural 1 is always a failure, right?

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 17:10

personally i wish they would make jump up match the boars ability, and completely change jump up to the following:

At the start of a teams turn (before any players activate), any of that teams prone players (who are not stunned) who have the Jump Up skill make an agility roll with a +1 modifier. If this succeeds, they stand up (this is not part of the players activation).

Then this entire argument would be moot.

This would be good in some ways (you would know at the start of your turn who is already standing up, and couldn't turnover before attempting to stand them up) but worse in others (you couldn't choose to NOT stand up if you were adjacent to a killer).

Javark

Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 17:58

Nelphine wrote:

personally i wish they would make jump up match the boars ability, and completely change jump up to the following:

At the start of a teams turn (before any players activate), any of that teams prone players (who are not stunned) who have the Jump Up skill make an agility roll with a +1 modifier. If this succeeds, they stand up (this is not part of the players activation).

Then this entire argument would be moot.

This would be good in some ways (you would know at the start of your turn who is already standing up, and couldn't turnover before attempting to stand them up) but worse in others (you couldn't choose to NOT stand up if you were adjacent to a killer).

I like Jump Up as it is now, even with the negatrait on the Blitz. I just need a definition without ambiguity. Of course, if such a check is needed on Blitz as well, I would think about it twice before choosing this skill on promotion.

Candlejack

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 20:07

As written before, there is no ambiguity. Jump Up has the unique feature that you can perform a block when being prone, that is what the description clearly states. Other skills like brawler or grab can only be used when already standing and so could be used to perform the block during a blitz action or a regular block action.

But Jump Up can only be used for blocking when you are prone, when you are standing it has no effect. So is no need to distinguish between block and blitz because during a blitz you will always be standing already when performing the block.

performing != declaring

You can declare a blitz when being prone, then standup for free during the move portion of the blitz action and then perform the block when you are already standing.

Again: performing a block when prone is the key element here and makes it absolutely clear.

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Javark

Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 23:45

Candlejack wrote:

As written before, there is no ambiguity. Jump Up has the unique feature that you can perform a block when being prone, that is what the description clearly states. Other skills like brawler or grab can only be used when already standing and so could be used to perform the block during a blitz action or a regular block action.

But Jump Up can only be used for blocking when you are prone, when you are standing it has no effect. So is no need to distinguish between block and blitz because during a blitz you will always be standing already when performing the block.

performing != declaring

You can declare a blitz when being prone, then standup for free during the move portion of the blitz action and then perform the block when you are already standing.

Again: performing a block when prone is the key element here and makes it absolutely clear.

It must be extremely clear for you, but it's not in my league. I can see even more the problem now since many skills (Brawler, Multiple Block, etc...) are explicitly including or excluding the Blitz, thus unfortunately validating the theory that when the wording "Block action" is used, then it must explicitly state whether it applies to Blitz or not. In my league, while we all know that the Move is part of the Blitz and it's enough to have the first rule of Jump Up kick in, such usage of Block is enough to imply that Blitz is included.

This is one of the few cases when the FAQ would help out a lot - there are tons of detailed answers in the FAQ that were not needed, yet questions have been posed and they were answered.

Candlejack

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Jan 09, 2024 - 07:35

I explained why this distinction is not needed for jump up. You seem to ignore this point and yes, then it becomes unclear. Then you should send that question to the faq address and hope tge put it into the next faq.

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