Jazz
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
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 Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 10:43 |
 
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Ok, so I have been playing this game for quite a while. And still the matter of agile vs bashy teams has not been resolved really.
(For your information: I once owned the original box of Dungeon Bowl and I still remember the time when you could buy 3 miniatures in one blister for less than 2 euro's. Yes, I know. I'm not old, I'm ancient.  )
There was a thread some weeks ago I think that asked all for their top 3 of what they wanted to see in the next LRB version. I posted an answer in that thread too, but I would like to take all that back.
I put my little 11 months old daughter, Malou, to bed and then it suddenly hit me. Why are agile teams so afraid of bashy teams? Why do the Elf coaches amongst us shudder at the thought of playing that advanced Dwarf or Chaos team? The answer is quite simple. Anything the agile teams can bring to bear can be easily negated by other skills. None of bashy teams skills can be negated.
For instance:
One of the first good skills of an agile team is Dodge. This can be negated by Tackle. A general skill available for virtually all. Even better, this skill is a passive skill, also active when the player that has it doesn't do anything but stand next to a dodger.
Passing games are countered by weather, tackle zones, interceptions, pass block, augmented by mutations and Catch (partly negatable by Safe Throw, but still) etc. etc.
Running games are countered by weather, tentacles, shadowing, etc. etc.
Another favorite of the leaping agility players is Strip Ball. Get yourself some Sure Hands, and that is negated too.
Sure, Side Step is great, but it is only really usefull against other agile teams with a loose defense. Those orcs, chaos and dwarf teams don't actually care if you sidestep. Their caege will not stop bashing to the end line slowly.
Now, how about those strength skills and mutations?
MB, claw, fangs, piling on, multiple block, horns, the list goes on. Nope, no skill there to counter them.
So, what I would like to see in some next version are agility skills that negate strength skills.
For instance:
feint - the player is a master of making feints, making it very hard for an opponent to bring his full strength to bear on that player. When blocking this player you can never add any modifiers to the armour roll.
and I could think of others.
Do I completely miss the point in my ponderings or did I actually thought of something usefull? I wonder.
Now, I am not a frequent reader of the forum, so it might very well be all this has been discussed already in some distant past. In that case, do accept my apologies for waisting bandwidth. 
Regards,
Jazz |
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Morgy
Joined: Apr 23, 2005
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May 29, 2005 - 12:22 |
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What you say makes a lot of sense......i like it and it is constructive rather than the usual agile vs bashy whinge.....good thinking! |
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calon
Joined: Oct 03, 2003
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May 29, 2005 - 12:46 |
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Got to be said i Like the idea, but would this then be limited to elves or would it be for any team which is primarily AV7? |
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Funso
Joined: Apr 05, 2004
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May 29, 2005 - 12:47 |
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You do have a point.
On the other hand, with the Vault rules which will eventually become the main ruleset, we are actively implementing ways to balance AG4 teams (like elves) so that they are weeker than they are right now overall. This point to the fact that overall, the AG4 teams are more powerful than the bashy teams. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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May 29, 2005 - 12:51 |
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you should talk about it in TalkBloodBowl. FUMBBL do follow official rules. No house rule here. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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May 29, 2005 - 13:05 |
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Another thing needed:
Distract (Gen trait):
A player with distract negates all guard in a 3 square radius. |
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Funso
Joined: Apr 05, 2004
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May 29, 2005 - 14:27 |
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You know, Circ, that would be a very good idea.
Make it 2 square radius, though. 3 is a bit too much, as we know from Foul Appearance. |
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DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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May 30, 2005 - 01:27 |
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| Funso wrote: | You do have a point.
On the other hand, with the Vault rules which will eventually become the main ruleset, we are actively implementing ways to balance AG4 teams (like elves) so that they are weeker than they are right now overall. This point to the fact that overall, the AG4 teams are more powerful than the bashy teams. |
 That's news to me |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
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Funso
Joined: Apr 05, 2004
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May 30, 2005 - 01:56 |
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From the playtesting we have done (in our rl league, we play using vault rules, and have a total of around 120 games) we have noticed the AG 4 teams really suffer using Vault rules. The vault rules really do seem to penalize the AG4 teams. (I don't use AG4 teams, you understand, but my coaches who do all complain of this difficulty to play AG 4 teams as well as they used to).
QED, the developers must consider AG4 teams slightly too powerful compared to other teams at the moment, otherwise we would not be implementing features which cause high AV teams to be more competetive than they previously used to be.
This is all opinion, of course. But I am pretty sure the things we are implementing through Vault are penalising low AV teams more than they are penalising high AV teams. Not a complaint, really, as in a game by game basis, taking equal skilled coaches, I would expect a high AG team to beat a low AG team more than 50% of the time. And therefore balancing may well be the right thing. |
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Wotfudboy
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
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May 30, 2005 - 02:02 |
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How's about a counter to dirty player... After watching Pires for Arsenal, how's about "injury faker"... ie the player yelps in pain and rolls around like he's been shot in the butt by a elephant gun, and gets the player standing next to him sent off?
I agree completely with the sentiment of the post... let's hear more! |
_________________
See my blog: https://wotfudboy.blogspot.com/.
WIL. |
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Lazerus101
Joined: Nov 07, 2003
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May 30, 2005 - 02:20 |
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Very good ideas, I think the biggest problem for AG teams though is their low armour. Fail anything too spectacularly or have the opponent get in some good blocks and you can count your team PERMANENTLY hindered. Also consider that most elf players are VERY expensive to replace if they are killed/injured. |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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May 30, 2005 - 02:31 |
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| DoubleSkulls wrote: | | Funso wrote: | You do have a point.
On the other hand, with the Vault rules which will eventually become the main ruleset, we are actively implementing ways to balance AG4 teams (like elves) so that they are weeker than they are right now overall. This point to the fact that overall, the AG4 teams are more powerful than the bashy teams. |
That's news to me |
I took a look at the top LRB races by win percentage on Fumbbl.
1. Chaos Dwarf
2. Amazon
3. Skaven
4. Wood Elf
5. Undead
6. Elf
7. Dwarf
8. Dark Elf
9. High Elf
10. Necromantic
Bashy: 2
Middle: 3
Agility: 5
So it seems that agility teams do have a bit of an advantage when it comes to winning individual games.
On the other hand, they do tend to suffer over time - as a coach who prefers agility, I would enjoy having some more damage reduction skills. I'm afraid that would really imbalance them, though - their fragility is pretty much their only weakness. I also get the feeling that part of the overall strategy of the vault is to increase on the field deaths as a substitute for aging - something I heartily agree with. I *hate* aging.
Improved strength skills, along with a worsened apo, will cause even more cherry picking here on fumbbl - especially at the high TR where it is already bad.
The strength/agility divide isn't really a huge problem...until you get to higher TR. Set the TR low enough, and this stuff doesn't come up. I'm afraid that any solution to this problem would end up causing more problems than it solves.
Perhaps the best solution is to play the game at a lower TR. I find that the game is more enjoyable at the lower TR - it's less dependent on luck, and my elves don't really have to worry about being ground into dust on a regular basis. |
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tza
Joined: Aug 25, 2004
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May 30, 2005 - 02:38 |
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One of the main things to keep in mind though..
Take a skill like surehands - it protects against strip ball, yes. But it also helps you picking up the ball. That's both a passive and active use of it. If you start looking for skills that negate other skills, there should for the main part also be a usefull'ness to it other than to just negate the skill. Like negating AV/Injury enhancing skills/mutations, it should also have some other benefit to it imo to make it really usefull. On the flip side, elves reach their 3'rd skill ALOT sooner than say chaos does their 3'rd skill, meaning that they do benefit from this skill alot sooner than the bashy teams do from their damage augmentating skills.
bleh never post while tired:p
I got a point in there somewhere, try and see if you can spot it :p |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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May 30, 2005 - 02:44 |
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DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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May 30, 2005 - 05:24 |
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| Funso wrote: | | QED, the developers must consider AG4 teams slightly too powerful compared to other teams at the moment, otherwise we would not be implementing features which cause high AV teams to be more competetive than they previously used to be. |
Well as one of those developers I'm quite surprised you've found that. The biggest change within the PBBL rules is a much stronger handicapping mechanism - which if anything ought to help lower Av teams in the long term since they won't suffer quite so much from deaths etc - meaning faster recovery and less rebuilding required.
Any particular concerns about why Elf teams are so hard to coach successfully? It might be more useful to post all of this on the GW forum.
| origami wrote: | | I took a look at the top LRB races by win percentage on Fumbbl. |
The very pure open nature of FUMBBL (with cherry picking etc) makes it exceptional and therefore those stats aren't as useful as I'd like. The problem in this case is that elves only playing bashy teams they think they'll beat - and otherwise play other elves. So they get an inflated win%.
So - there is no intention within the PBBL rules to make agility teams harder to play. If anything the intent is the opposite - agility teams ought to be able compete better because they suffer less in the long term from their low Av. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
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