Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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 Posted:
May 30, 2005 - 06:07 |
 
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| Quote: | | The very pure open nature of FUMBBL (with cherry picking etc) makes it exceptional and therefore those stats aren't as useful as I'd like. The problem in this case is that elves only playing bashy teams they think they'll beat - and otherwise play other elves. So they get an inflated win%. |
Perhaps it would be possible to get a more detailed set of stats, including race vs race, at a range of different ratings (or rating differences)... If it is important enough to those working on the rule changes, I'm fairly sure that Christer would be willing to help out [he's just that great a guy you know!]. |
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DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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May 30, 2005 - 08:13 |
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The fundamental problem is the pure open nature of FUMBBL makes those stats a bit meaningless for real life leagues. TBH I'd prefer he spent his time implementing the PBBL stuff for DivX or something than producing stats. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
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johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 30, 2005 - 10:33 |
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Origami is quite correct that there are two very separate ssues at work here.
The first is whether agility teams can stand up well to bashy teams when it comes to winning matches, and they certainly can - an agility team will have at least equal chances to win against an equally good and equally well coached bashy team.
The second is how they work in longer leagues, and this is where agility teams hurt (unless they cherry pick). While I'm loath to take any "blood" out of "Blood Bowl", it's likely agility teams would play bashing teams more if the risk of permanent injuries were reduced, at the very least for the dreaded niggling injury, which is almost as bad as getting killed.
I wouldn't be opposed to changes that made permanent injuries less likely, especially if they'd reduce the number of nigglings (other stat losses can at least make for weird and interesting players). On that note, I'm also opposed to Virus, which makes niggling injuries even worse, and usually decides a high-level game outright when it's rolled.
/johan |
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Funso
Joined: Apr 05, 2004
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May 30, 2005 - 12:42 |
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Well, Ian. Garlack has also implied that Vault is implementing ways to control AG4 teams, and that the weekened Apothecary was such a measure (although that wasn't its main purpose, it is a side effect).
And to be fair, the tournaments we have here (which enforce no cherrypicking) also suggest that the +AG teams over perform. We don't have tournament stats, but it is clear over the long run that high AG teams over perform in that environment by looking at many tournaments over a period of time. |
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DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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May 31, 2005 - 04:04 |
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This really isn't the appropriate forum for the discussion - you should post your feedback on the GW website (and if you can on the PBBL results database too!).
If you look at leagues like the SWL - in general leagues eventually go bash heavy. Agility teams cannot compete in the longer term because they suffer too much player turnover. So the PBBL rules are trying to smooth it so that AG teams can compete in bashy leagues - but so they do not dominate. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
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President
Joined: Mar 23, 2005
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May 31, 2005 - 04:50 |
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Surely if their were skills to counter bashy skills, this would give bashy teams virtually no chance. Surprisingly enough, the way a bashy team works is to be bashy! If you took that away, what would they do?!
4 or 5 skilled up woodelves could still score a touchdown against a full team of slower, lower agility morons. Just an observation, but bashy teams need the advantage in bashing skills, in order for their tactics to work.
Maybe i dont know what im talking about cos im drunk, but who knows? Elves are the bashy ones right?  |
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stormmaster1
Joined: May 26, 2005
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Jun 01, 2005 - 12:15 |
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If there were skills to negate the bashy skills, elves would then get to choose between increasing thier own agility, speed and scoring with skills like dodge or sprint or take any new skills to help protect against bashy teams. By choosing more defensive skills they would become less powerful in terms of scoring. A similar choice happens now. Does my chaos team choose claw, mb and guard to play to our strengths or shadowing, pass block etc to counter our oppositions strengths. I think that is what makes skill choices so interesting. |
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Greenfort
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Jun 01, 2005 - 13:08 |
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I know that it can be a pain to try and prevent AG4 teams from scoring, but that´s only half the game. I normally play for the win, one of those nobles who never foul  , but also like to see my players and teams develop over time. Much of the game for me is writing bios and stories (I know I haven´t made them all yet  ).
I ashamed to say, that I sometimes discount potential opponents if they can hurt me too badly and force me to retire a team I´ve put a lot of effort in creating.
If I got the option of some bashy negating skills I would love them. Would mean that I didn´t get the one-turners etc. but wouldn´t care. Think it would make for a more balanced game where measures meets counter-measures, and the game of winning the match comes alive again.
Don´t think I´m only with these opinions. I keep getting turned down when trying to find games for my Ranked Lizards or FQ Humans (when my blockers where still alive! Should be easier now...)
The same tendency is starting to show itself in Stunty..........and here´s a league where no one should expect to find any balance between the strenghts of the teams!!
Please don´t take this as whining. I do play the bashy teams (got a rather bad habit of accepting challenges from the Dead with my Humans!!!! That hurts) and enjoy these games a lot.
I know this is BLOOD Bowl but it should also be about winning  |
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Headjuanter
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2005 - 13:26 |
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| Funso wrote: | | And to be fair, the tournaments we have here (which enforce no cherrypicking) also suggest that the +AG teams over perform. We don't have tournament stats, but it is clear over the long run that high AG teams over perform in that environment by looking at many tournaments over a period of time. |
Hmm... you sure about this? What kind of tournaments is this, just the big [R]-ones? Because I can't really see that in any type of league, where I cannot cherrypick over a long time.
Whoever was surprised about the win statistics, I wouldn't really be and I'd think a good Woodie team can beat most opponents for one game. If they have to play three or four bashy teams in a row, however, they will not only not win, but they'll probably lose half their players.
The other thing that is ridiculous is the DP skill, I think. Anyone can get enough assists to break any armour, so it's really somewhat better than RSC or claw- it's like combining those two skills in one if you're willing to foul. |
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Flynn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 01, 2005 - 14:00 |
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the problem with ag 4 teams is the ag 4
i have had many elf teams in my time and i know that they are hard to keep for th elong run
but they do win lots of games
agility teams already have an inate advantage (atleast elves)
remember that ag 4 in and of itself makes a player 20k better according to Jervis's pricing formula |
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Tymless
Joined: Jul 01, 2004
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Jun 01, 2005 - 14:11 |
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Well um, isnt the point to be agility vs bashy. If its agile it runs away and tries to score. If its bashy it kills the things trying to run away. So the agility wins by td's but gets retired at the end of any game the bashy do well in. Then the bashy teams coach comes on and complains cause he lost a game after an amazing 3/6/3 cas match. So it must be the agility teams fault for winning and accomplishing its goal before it ceased to exist. Its just the goal thats in question. In the above description both teams did exactly what they were meant to. It just happens that only one team has to be retired after the game. So I dont see the issue. Bashy kills agility but doesnt always stop agility from winning. |
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Doom & Gloom |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Jun 01, 2005 - 15:25 |
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here you get the best idea ever:
make bashers 6/3/3/8
and agile 6/3/3/8
It think then they will be equal  |
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Tymless
Joined: Jul 01, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2005 - 15:40 |
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and then we can all play games that are just humies vs humies.
In fact why dont we just get rid of all the skills.
That way everything will be equal and fair. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2005 - 15:51 |
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| Tymless wrote: | and then we can all play games that are just humies vs humies.
In fact why dont we just get rid of all the skills.
That way everything will be equal and fair. |
we really think the same.
Except that humans pics are uncool so we should keep the others too.  |
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Wotfudboy
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2005 - 15:56 |
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Hmmm ... helpful ideas above... 
Call this inspired, or foolishness, but perhaps there is a simple answer... How's about make the blood bowl pitch wider by, say 1 or 2 squares either side, but keeping the same width of the line of scrummage.
That would result in "bashy" sides being a little more thinly spread out and would give more agile sides a better chance of getting through the lines. That way you don't have to change any rules or race stats... apart from maybe a mod to the Kick off dice. |
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