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2012-02-13 20:18:06
21 votes, rating 4.8
21 votes, rating 4.8
Spirit of the 'Game'
There have been a few things that I have noticed recently that have caused me to take on a different 'train of thought' about what 'The Spirit of the Game' means to me.
1.) Blurb before team lists from the Rulebook
"Designer Note: Some teams are more challenging than the others to play either because of their skills requiring advanced strategies to be effective or because they have difficulty winning. These teams have been designed this way on purpose to give challenges to coaches who master the basics of Blood Bowl. These more challenging teams are: Chaos, Dark Elf, Goblin, Halfling, Khemri, Nurgle, Ogre and Vampire. Coaches should be aware that these are considered teams for more advanced players and can be confusing to use if you are new to the game."
2.) Nath's post about a tourney he is entering
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21394&highlight=nath
"in a few months i will be entering a bloodbowl tourney with some interesting variations on the standard tournament.
firstly i'll kick off with the rule stipulations
1,200,000 starting teasury
starting skill selection of either
A) 4 normal skills and 2 doubles skills
B) 4 normal skills, 1 double and either +1mv OR +1av
no players may recieve more than 1 upgrade
no skill upgrade may be selected more than twice
normal skills may be chosen in place of doubles. "
3.) Top Coaches List ( Top 10 )
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches
1 Liam_Gallagher 445 (81) 325/67/53 180.56
2 Carnis 821 (70) 496/165/160 180.23
3 Tarabaralla 1014 (76) 672/199/143 177.93
4 RandomOracle 910 (76) 616/143/151 176.79
5 JockMcRowdy 3378 (69) 2089/468/821 175.96
6 NoeLdeBenedict 1111 (74) 758/133/220 175.3
7 katze 938 (78) 658/138/142 175.12
8 BiBi 173 (78) 117/36/20 175.02
9 KFoged 2029 (64) 1097/393/539 174.85
10 lepazuri 1243 (57) 578/252/413 174.81
Now is where I get to my thoughts about 'The Spirit of the Game'...
I haven't had very much exposure to table top play and I have not been fortunate enough to be in a tourney setup like the NAF. I still feel like I have a solid grasp of their dynamics...or so I thought...
I feel like there is a FUMMBL mentality that greatly influences our opinions and perceptions of this game and how we play it. There are 'mixed' feelings about the current ruleset and team development choices. Let's not forget the concept of 'Pixel Hugging'.
In the beginning, truthfully, I went through the team lists and looked over each team and the first thing i focused on were the statistics each player had on each team and then the skills available on each team after these I considered the starting rosters with 1,000,000 Gold.
I liked the Norse and Nurgle teams when I started to play at the start of LRB4. I went and bought figures for each team...painted them...named them...dreamed of the skills they would get when they levelled...different plays/formations I would use to get these guys skills...
TableTop wasn't enough for me so I tried playing by email...zzzzzzzz!...then I found FUMBBL and I had quite the 'culture shock'...
On FUMMBL I was able to build my teams and give all of those players the skills that I had dreamed about...I could try out different formations and rosters...it was so cool! I then started going in tournies to test my teams and my skill...became more involved in chat discussion in the main chat...started into forum discussions...play in leagues...
FUMBBL is my main source for BloodBowl while others have cool leagues they play on TableTop and/or participate in NAF type tournies as their main source for BloodBowl.
Now, why did I list these three things?...
Point #1-
I was shocked when I red that DE and Chaos were listed as difficult teams to play because I didnt pay attention to their starting stats and skills as much as I focused on what I could build them into...
Point #2-
I went back and considered each team in the same fashion and guidelines as were listed in Nath's Post and I experienced that 'First Time High' again...a revitalization of my intrigue to this game.
Point #3-
There are a few coaches in the top 10 list who have very few games played on their teams and the rest are the traditional 'Major' tourney participants that have numerous games on teams...
The top coach pretty much keeps his teams at around 6 skills....hmmmmmm....How can he not want or keep cool players? Is he just cherrypicking new teams for easy wins to artificially inflate his 'CR'?...
So I guess I have some questions now....
Is there a league on our site that has a format similar to the NAF tournies?
Is the current ruleset really that 'bad' when you consider it in terms of less than 10 skills on a team?
Is it possible that we could use more **functionality** towards the role-playing aspect of this game so that we aren't pulled towards our teams being our identity?
**I will touch upon these in a future blog**
1.) Blurb before team lists from the Rulebook
"Designer Note: Some teams are more challenging than the others to play either because of their skills requiring advanced strategies to be effective or because they have difficulty winning. These teams have been designed this way on purpose to give challenges to coaches who master the basics of Blood Bowl. These more challenging teams are: Chaos, Dark Elf, Goblin, Halfling, Khemri, Nurgle, Ogre and Vampire. Coaches should be aware that these are considered teams for more advanced players and can be confusing to use if you are new to the game."
2.) Nath's post about a tourney he is entering
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21394&highlight=nath
"in a few months i will be entering a bloodbowl tourney with some interesting variations on the standard tournament.
firstly i'll kick off with the rule stipulations
1,200,000 starting teasury
starting skill selection of either
A) 4 normal skills and 2 doubles skills
B) 4 normal skills, 1 double and either +1mv OR +1av
no players may recieve more than 1 upgrade
no skill upgrade may be selected more than twice
normal skills may be chosen in place of doubles. "
3.) Top Coaches List ( Top 10 )
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches
1 Liam_Gallagher 445 (81) 325/67/53 180.56
2 Carnis 821 (70) 496/165/160 180.23
3 Tarabaralla 1014 (76) 672/199/143 177.93
4 RandomOracle 910 (76) 616/143/151 176.79
5 JockMcRowdy 3378 (69) 2089/468/821 175.96
6 NoeLdeBenedict 1111 (74) 758/133/220 175.3
7 katze 938 (78) 658/138/142 175.12
8 BiBi 173 (78) 117/36/20 175.02
9 KFoged 2029 (64) 1097/393/539 174.85
10 lepazuri 1243 (57) 578/252/413 174.81
Now is where I get to my thoughts about 'The Spirit of the Game'...
I haven't had very much exposure to table top play and I have not been fortunate enough to be in a tourney setup like the NAF. I still feel like I have a solid grasp of their dynamics...or so I thought...
I feel like there is a FUMMBL mentality that greatly influences our opinions and perceptions of this game and how we play it. There are 'mixed' feelings about the current ruleset and team development choices. Let's not forget the concept of 'Pixel Hugging'.
In the beginning, truthfully, I went through the team lists and looked over each team and the first thing i focused on were the statistics each player had on each team and then the skills available on each team after these I considered the starting rosters with 1,000,000 Gold.
I liked the Norse and Nurgle teams when I started to play at the start of LRB4. I went and bought figures for each team...painted them...named them...dreamed of the skills they would get when they levelled...different plays/formations I would use to get these guys skills...
TableTop wasn't enough for me so I tried playing by email...zzzzzzzz!...then I found FUMBBL and I had quite the 'culture shock'...
On FUMMBL I was able to build my teams and give all of those players the skills that I had dreamed about...I could try out different formations and rosters...it was so cool! I then started going in tournies to test my teams and my skill...became more involved in chat discussion in the main chat...started into forum discussions...play in leagues...
FUMBBL is my main source for BloodBowl while others have cool leagues they play on TableTop and/or participate in NAF type tournies as their main source for BloodBowl.
Now, why did I list these three things?...
Point #1-
I was shocked when I red that DE and Chaos were listed as difficult teams to play because I didnt pay attention to their starting stats and skills as much as I focused on what I could build them into...
Point #2-
I went back and considered each team in the same fashion and guidelines as were listed in Nath's Post and I experienced that 'First Time High' again...a revitalization of my intrigue to this game.
Point #3-
There are a few coaches in the top 10 list who have very few games played on their teams and the rest are the traditional 'Major' tourney participants that have numerous games on teams...
The top coach pretty much keeps his teams at around 6 skills....hmmmmmm....How can he not want or keep cool players? Is he just cherrypicking new teams for easy wins to artificially inflate his 'CR'?...
So I guess I have some questions now....
Is there a league on our site that has a format similar to the NAF tournies?
Is the current ruleset really that 'bad' when you consider it in terms of less than 10 skills on a team?
Is it possible that we could use more **functionality** towards the role-playing aspect of this game so that we aren't pulled towards our teams being our identity?
**I will touch upon these in a future blog**
Comments
Posted by PainState on 2012-02-13 20:36:22
The problem wiht "spirit of the game" when it comes to FUMBBL is that it is a computer game based on a board game.
Since it is a computer game the vast majority of coaches look at the rules and play/build their teams based on their expecations to win matches. The rules are black/white so they play accordingly.
Roleplayers are marginalized in this format because they do not care as much about winning. Their fun comes from building "character" into their teams. Devoting a lot of time into fluff, pics for players and logos.
So the "spirit of the game" coaches handicap themselves in terms of winning as a trade off to have fun in an enviroment that at times can be really boring.
Since it is a computer game the vast majority of coaches look at the rules and play/build their teams based on their expecations to win matches. The rules are black/white so they play accordingly.
Roleplayers are marginalized in this format because they do not care as much about winning. Their fun comes from building "character" into their teams. Devoting a lot of time into fluff, pics for players and logos.
So the "spirit of the game" coaches handicap themselves in terms of winning as a trade off to have fun in an enviroment that at times can be really boring.
Posted by koadah on 2012-02-13 21:33:04
On a big league like Fumbbl different people will have different ideas about 'spirit of the game'.
When people with different ideas meet that is when you get the moaning. ;)
You can run a non progression Swiss tournament if you want. You cannot start at anything other than 1000k or award skills yet. I am guessing that that may be coming at some point.
don't know what you mean by "more **functionality** towards the role-playing aspect". You can role play all you like.
Also don't know what you mean by "so that we aren't pulled towards our teams being our identity?" A coach is not the team. A coach can manage many teams.
When people with different ideas meet that is when you get the moaning. ;)
You can run a non progression Swiss tournament if you want. You cannot start at anything other than 1000k or award skills yet. I am guessing that that may be coming at some point.
don't know what you mean by "more **functionality** towards the role-playing aspect". You can role play all you like.
Also don't know what you mean by "so that we aren't pulled towards our teams being our identity?" A coach is not the team. A coach can manage many teams.
Posted by BCH on 2012-02-13 22:22:34
I would love to see a division or league set up like NAF tournaments. No spp's just skill packages and play x amount of games using typical Swiss pairings.
Posted by koadah on 2012-02-13 22:32:41
YOU can do it it. But without the skills. Be aware that on-line people may well drop out after they lose a couple of games.
Posted by licker on 2012-02-13 22:52:36
While not NAF exactly the NCBB only allows players to participate in 4 seasons (this is still ~40 games though) before they must be retired.
This does lead to certain kinds of teams being more difficult to build as some kinds of teams can spp like mad short term while others require more games to spp multiple players.
It also makes the super star player more valuable as there is simply no guarantee that you will 'easily' replace him.
I'm sure there are other leagues with various restrictions to keep teams in a certain TV range, or limit players in some other way.
The 'problem' (if you chose to think of it that way) with FUMBBL is R and B and the way that teams are so rapidly developed and so 'cheesily' (again, depending on your opinion of cherry picking/min maxing/...) scheduled.
L, if you pick the right league(s) for your taste, gives you more or less exactly what you want.
This does lead to certain kinds of teams being more difficult to build as some kinds of teams can spp like mad short term while others require more games to spp multiple players.
It also makes the super star player more valuable as there is simply no guarantee that you will 'easily' replace him.
I'm sure there are other leagues with various restrictions to keep teams in a certain TV range, or limit players in some other way.
The 'problem' (if you chose to think of it that way) with FUMBBL is R and B and the way that teams are so rapidly developed and so 'cheesily' (again, depending on your opinion of cherry picking/min maxing/...) scheduled.
L, if you pick the right league(s) for your taste, gives you more or less exactly what you want.
Posted by blader4411 on 2012-02-13 22:54:45
Point 1: No idea about that listing, as Dark Elves are quite solid at low TV. Even with zero progression, you get a couple blodgers, a wrestler, a kicker and you're golden.
-Blader
-Blader
Posted by Rabe on 2012-02-13 22:59:40
Very interesting food for thought!
Three thoughts that hit me (one after another):
1) I am far less a role player and pixel-hugger than I was in the past. Now I wonder if that is a good thing...
2) What would happen if I had to distribute only (up to) ten skills on a rookie team and which team would I pick? Then it occurred to me, that me (and others) played with that idea a few weeks ago: https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21044
3) BB7s artificially limit player (or better team) development to a lower level of skills then usual (on small teams to be fair). Due to this it requires a totally different approach to the game when it comes to team building. That alone should make that format interesting and maybe outstanding! (Not a marketing gag, but a sharpening of my point of view on the league I run.)
Three thoughts that hit me (one after another):
1) I am far less a role player and pixel-hugger than I was in the past. Now I wonder if that is a good thing...
2) What would happen if I had to distribute only (up to) ten skills on a rookie team and which team would I pick? Then it occurred to me, that me (and others) played with that idea a few weeks ago: https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21044
3) BB7s artificially limit player (or better team) development to a lower level of skills then usual (on small teams to be fair). Due to this it requires a totally different approach to the game when it comes to team building. That alone should make that format interesting and maybe outstanding! (Not a marketing gag, but a sharpening of my point of view on the league I run.)
Posted by bghandras on 2012-02-13 23:30:55
Quote: "So the "spirit of the game" coaches handicap themselves in terms of winning as a trade off to have fun in an enviroment that at times can be really boring."
There is another way of putting this: The game is not balanced enough to keep it fun even at the most competitive environment.
It has become evident to me that the way this game was designed (to purposefully deliver weak teams for fluff reasons), it is impossible to do so.
I dont think that roleplaying or fun should contradict successful team management. Even more, as a game developer i strongly beleive that the game should be designed so that it gets people do what they like. If it is not happening, then lets get back to the drawing board, and time for reconsideration.
To back my word, i am open to offer my help in any brainstorming testing or developing which may make this wonderful game most enjoyable.
There is another way of putting this: The game is not balanced enough to keep it fun even at the most competitive environment.
It has become evident to me that the way this game was designed (to purposefully deliver weak teams for fluff reasons), it is impossible to do so.
I dont think that roleplaying or fun should contradict successful team management. Even more, as a game developer i strongly beleive that the game should be designed so that it gets people do what they like. If it is not happening, then lets get back to the drawing board, and time for reconsideration.
To back my word, i am open to offer my help in any brainstorming testing or developing which may make this wonderful game most enjoyable.