mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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 Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 00:13 |
 
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: |
Personal Desire doesn't trump Collective Desire for me in a multiplayer game. It might for you. |
Not at all. I want the Box to be "pure". Let the people who play decide the composition and have the scheduler set up roughly even TV matches.
If 50% of people use Clawpomb then that means 50% of people want to use Clawpomb and I want to play Clawpomb roughly 50% of the time, not be falsely adjusted up or down. If 60% of people used Elves then I would want to play Elves about 60% of the time. I am not pro bash at all, I am pro people using whatever the hell they want. So far the people have spoken and they want clawpomb. IF all the whiners, naysayers and SJWs started using softer races maybe there would be change and that kind of change would be fine with me, because it would be what the people actually want... but this trying to mould the Box into their own personal vision of what it "should" be, I just can't agree with that at all.
Oh and out of interest can anyone give us the same kind of racial stats for ranked please? |
I think absolute purity would be fine if the CRP had accounted for perpetual leagues with new participants and teams entering frequently. The general consensus though is that purity doesn't lead to the best possible experience for the largest amount of coaches as evidenced by the constant turnover and frequent critical outcry about Box. Leagues, even ones for rookies and inexperienced coaches don't have nearly the same amount of criticism because of the roughly even development of teams and the roughly even skill of coaches as well as League racial quotas.
And when you say the people want Clawpomb as evidenced by the play rates, you're not acknowledging why that's the case and why that's a contrast between other divisions and leagues. The format influences selection. Christer has domain over the format and is obviously listening to the community.
And I have to wonder the limits of your purity emphasis only because it seems impractical and out of step with what is already in existence - the 30 game tweak for example is not pure. But the feedback has been generally positive to it. Why is this the line you're drawing? Why TV matching instead of "pure" randomness? There's a lot of personal visions of what Box should be and it's not important for people need to justify preferences but why are some visions more valid than others, especially when we're talking about something related to scheduling, something outside of the purview CRP. I'm with you on not altering CRP at all (because I like a consistent standards of comparison conversation about strategy and team building)
Finally, would it be more palatable if some of these things discussed were put to an almost virtually mandatory vote or a census was conducted? I'm not saying that we should dismiss play rates, but theres a large swath of coaches that don't participate in the forums and play Box and it'd be nice to get that missing feedback. See if the reasons they play the teams they do. See if they're receptive to changes.
On that note I talked to a coach I've had my eye on and he's a low win % coach but he loves playing the game. Here it is with his permission:
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mrt1212:
Hey Hey,
So there's a debate raging over in the forum on player retention and I wanted to ask you a few questions about your experience on FUMBBL and why you play and things you enjoy and dislike.
I don't want to beat around the bush but you don't have a good record, and many many many people would have stopped playing long ago. I appreciate the time you've put in and I've enjoyed a few of the games we've had together but I want know what keeps you playing and how long you intend to keep playing?
For me, I enjoy the challenge the game presents in terms of planning and I am a gambling fiend so the risk element is very alluring and rewarding in its own right. I figure I'm about average as a coach but I find the game rewarding win or lose because of that mentality, I'd love to get better but it isn't important to do so here and now. Also, I'm a huge football fan and former Warhammer enthusiast.
If there was an opportunity to avoid being paired with people at the highest echelons of skill and bloodbowl knowledge would that further your interest in playing? Are there any things within the scheduling that you'd change or like?
I'm just kinda curious because nobody really hears these perspectives on the forum, it's mostly people who have played 100s and 100s of games and take it seriously who offer opinions there.
TrumanKaput:
Thanks for the interest.
I play Blood Bowl because it's the best game. I hate minis. I hate football. I love Blood Bowl. It is captivating in a way no other game is. Obviously you know this already.
I'm also terrible at Blood Bowl. I always have been, even playing regularly for almost 10 years now. That said, lately I've (finally) been getting a little better. How? A couple years ago, I decided to play Ogre teams exclusively, starting each time with 0 rerolls. Needless to say, this was one of the most frustrating experiences of my life, but if you listen closely, Ogres will whisper to you all the secrets of Blood Bowl. The trick is suffering through their breath.
Or half the secrets at any rate. What I learned how to do was play defense. The "easiest" part of the game for me, it is a simple matter of positioning, sequencing and a little math. Even on offense, I could not develop and execute a battle plan with any reliability, instead merely putting out fires while trying to "?" while pointing in the right direction.
At any rate, within the past month or so, I have graduated myself onto the knee of Papa Nurgle, and it has been glorious. With a notable exception, those guys do what you tell them to 100% of the time. What a revelation. I can now take my (still fledgling) knowledge or what not to start my turn with, and couple that with... wait for it... strategy! And at long last I'm improving, sort of. I'm hoping by game 50, the Niners and I will be a winning franchise. (Well, we'll see...)
As for what keeps me coming back? The same thing that keep anyone coming back: The chill down your spine when your best player gets -AV on turn 2 and you have to decide if you heal him or not. The way your stomach goes into free fall when your ball carrier is killed/killed by a thrown rock. The "sploosh" sound effect.
Personally, the idea of playing with other scrubs doesn't particularly appeal to me, but I might be unusually patient and stubborn. I feel that I get better the fastest when facing the best competition. Even if I lose every game. I would, in theory, join the bad player league or what have you, but I have it hard enough setting aside time in my life for the Box, which I find to be a lovable meat grinder.
As I said, the reason I play Blood Bowl is because it's amazing. The reason I play on Fumbbl amounts to it having the best user interface. A top-down view is really what you want. I do actually wish there were some more options for organized play though.
My dream would be to have a format with a large, unified league with tiers based on skill/record/standings. Even a Black Box style format with more emphasis on games played than team value would be beneficial. Obviously this game has been designed and balanced with this kind of play in mind. Also nerf claw; $0.02.
To sum up, I'm in it for the long haul. As long as Fumbbl will let me stink up the place, I'm not going anywhere.
Let me know if you want some more of my thoughts. Clearly there is no shortage.
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It seems I have misplaced worries about some rookie coaches. Mea Culpa. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 00:35 |
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Of course, most people like teambuilding and Box is the hardest place to teambuild because it's actually a competitive division.
I have explained why I prefer TV matching previously in the thread. The scheduler change was basically due to one coach(we all know who) who had a severely minmaxed pact team. I can see why it was done but honestly I prefer the old matchmaking system and without him I think other people would be fine with it too.
Yeah of course listening to people who actually play is better than the same loudmouths that are on the forum all the time  |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 01:18 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: |
Oh and out of interest can anyone give us the same kind of racial stats for ranked please? |
I do not have this data...but I to would find it very interesting IF by chance, the data showed that coaches who like team building and elfballing played in Ranked and coaches who like Bash and destruction played in Box.
BUT
I would also like to see the data in Ranked of the top 6 races who played the most matches at TV 1800+.
My gut says...it would look almost the same as box except woodies might pop in at #6 and my money would be on Orcs at #1. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 01:24 |
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LOL I, seriously, did not go back to page 29 when I posted this.
Orcs are #1 in Ranked and Woodies are #6
LOL |
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Comish of the: |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 01:25 |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 01:35 |
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And it takes me forever to get Skaven or Wood Elf games ... buncha dirty pickers! 
How much has this changed recently, though? Does anybody have stats that cover from 2012 on out? |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 01:41 |
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R is also a competitive division, and it's tournament scene is actually stronger (more events, and I suspect more participation - not that I have numbers to back this up). Claims of the Box being like it is because it's actually a competitive division are a distraction. Plenty of coaches still prefer to go trailer park rather than win the game in the box.
Also, there was more than one coach exploiting the previous scheduler. Yes, one was better known than the others. I recall there were some Zon teams that were used at low TV to play newer undeveloped teams. Even cpomb teams at higher ranges tended to trim TV to stay below 2000+ so that they could get games, if you let your TV blow out the old scheduler would leave your team in purgatory for draws on end.
The scheduler aims to produce a degree of fairness in games - if nobody cared about fairness then we wouldn't need any formula at all. No one is advocating just throwing every activating team in a bucket and having a truely random draw. Just using TV matching is flawed and does not necessarily produce a fair match as the CRP ruleset is structured to have unequal team strength by design. A little less fairness under the new scheduler in regards to TV has allowed more games that wouldn't have otherwise occured (albeit at a cost bourne by older teams).
I'd welcome a scheduler that was a little less fair again if it encourages a wider range of opponent and game experience. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 03:38 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Of course, most people like teambuilding and Box is the hardest place to teambuild because it's actually a competitive division. |
I've played in SWL for some years now. It's certainly one of the more competitive environments on Fumbbl (and also one of the most social group of buggers I've had the pleasure of being a part of on Fumbbl). I've played in other leagues where coaches have been pussyfooting around and frowning upon things like excessive fouling. But in the SWL however, if you don't take a chance to foul a key player, other coaches will tell you to open a can of man-the-cluck-up.
Despite of this (and not meaning to boast) I recently ended a run of 9 seasons (63 games) in the SWL premier league, keeping my Norse on average at 1800+ for almost the entirety of this run.
The reason I was able to do this in a violent mad-max-league like the SWL is mainly down to the racial quotas. The league commissioner allows only a maximum of 3 teams from each race.
So the theory you suggest above - that it's hard to team build in a competitive environment - is inaccurate at best. You would at least have to specify that: it's hard to team build in a competitive environment where half the high-TV games are played by the 3 most destructive races in blood bowl. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 08:04 |
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Sorry I should have clarified, I didn't mean competitive in terms of win at all costs but competitive teambuilding. Ranked lets you pick soft games to teambuild and league often has racial quotas to allow easier teambuilding. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 08:14 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | ....... the same loudmouths that are on the forum all the time |
*grin* |
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Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 08:38 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | league often has racial quotas to allow easier teambuilding. |
This statement covers only half the story. Racial quotas in leagues are also there to ensure you face a variety of opponents (more entertainment for everyone), and that in turn allows more races to be competitive because teams don't face destruction in every game. This is the opposite of what's been happening in Blackbox. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 09:37 |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Oct 19, 2014 - 09:43 |
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Ok ok *that allow easier teambuilding.
I also notice that there are clawpomb nerfs in some leagues that allow easier teambuilding |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 10:07 |
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BillBrasky
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 19, 2014 - 10:33 |
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I've seen some very well built human, norse, zon, and regen teams.
I think that's a bit too broad of a statement, koadah. |
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