Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Feb 08, 2017 - 13:31 |
 
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This is probably a discussion that has been had before. Talking with another good coach recently, he mentioned that he has kind of neglected Stand Firm but generally likes Side Step.
I look at Side Step as a skill that allows me to move to several squares, whereas Stand Firm only gives me the option to either stand still (1 new option) or to let the block happen as normal.
And although I can fully appreciate just how powerful Side Step is given that it even works on a pow, I find myself struggeling to take a skill that only gets active in reaction to something my opponent does. It seems a bit out of control.
There is of course also a counter skill, grab. Unlike Tackle however, that skill is rarely taken. I guess that tells something in turn about the value of Side Step.
Stand Firm also has a counter skill, it is a bit more common, but overall also pretty rare.
I often see people readily take doubles to give Side Step to their Longbeards etc, which makes me wonder:
Ultimately Stand Firm and Side Step have roughly the same function, which is area control. Yet people are willing to invest doubles and better skills to get there. Side Step does have the better options in terms where to go, but a Side Stepper can ultimately be manipulated to be pushed into a square where he is less annoying, there is no way to truely remove a Stand Firmer short of knocking him down. The Side Stepper also can improve on position but the Stand Firmer should be placed where he is most useful to begin with...
I feel like in terms of running the sidelines I'm probably better off with Side Step since a single player could still nail a stand firmer down there whereas as a sidestepper I can always step away from the side. But in terms of interaction with Guard I'd probably prefer a Stand Firmer. Then again, when I think about dwarves Side Step might be indeed better oddly for such a dumb reason as that dwarves are just really slow.
Thoughts? |
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almic85
Joined: May 25, 2009
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Feb 08, 2017 - 13:42 |
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Keep in mind that side step allows you to place your blocked player where you want them for your turn, while stand firm just keeps you in the same spot.
Defending against a standard rolling cage with guard, sidestep dwarfs it is possible to get multiple block guard guys into the cage without rolling a dodge dice.
Stand firm in this instance would just stall the cage without putting pressure directly on the ball carrier.
Basically I need to invest more players to make sure a sidestep opponent doesn't end up where I don't want them, while there is less risk of blocking a stand firm player as they won't end up next to my ball carrier.
If you can get multiple sidestep, blodge, guard players then you can break cages in your opponents turn. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Feb 08, 2017 - 13:59 |
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Side Step is not as good as the core skills (Block, Guard, Tackle, MB, Dodge), but the most useful of the non-core skills imho (leaving aside PO for a moment). It is a passive skill but as passive skills go, it is very powerful. Often a Side Stepper just cannot be safely blocked, because in case of pushes would worsen the opponent's position. For marking, synergy with Guard, DT et al as well as surfing protection it is not superior to SF though, in some instances inferior even, which is why I think it odd to take it on doubles for a player that has S access on singles. But a lot of very good coaches do so I guess it's arguable. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Feb 08, 2017 - 14:17 |
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I actually think SF vs SS is a fun conundrum on a Slann blitzer, both have their advantages.
I feel there is also a bit of a perception bias, in that for a lot of people using teams with S access on normal, most would take other S skills before stand firm, but on gaining a double that you felt you wanted to use, sidestep is one of the A skills you'd consider for even the most unagile of players.
Wheras using a S access on doubles team, not only would you take plenty of skills before SF from S skills, but side-step is also one of the "premier" A skills available to you on a normal, and so is probably already in your mind as something you may get later anyway if needed.
There's also the simple explanation that we're conditioned to think of certain stacks - eg. blodgestep, which can have an effect on our evaluation of skills even on an individual pick. |
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Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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Feb 08, 2017 - 14:22 |
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When the Agility Monsters had three side-stepping Guards, I remember my opponents had a hard time dealing with it (those were the days when we actually won games), even though only one of them had Dodge on top. As Vermi said, it can easily ruin your turn if you manage to only push a Guard and he suddenly prevents several two-dice blocks at once. Stand Firm is overall great, I think, and highly underrated - and often the better options combined with Diving Tackle (but then you also want Dodge, which is another double for S access players).
Edit:
Brumbas or Vundir? If I remember correctly, Vundir was the more hated of that duo - and also the one who got killed. 
Elves probably wouldn't take Stand Firm over Guard, Mighty Blow and Piling On, just to have it in combination with Diving Tackle, while taking Side Step over Dodge has its merits for a guard (who also have Tackle, if we're speaking about longbeards). It's a matter of perspective, I guess.
Playing against mass Stand Firm must be terrible. I'd love to try building such a team eventually. 
Oh, and Side Step is nice with Fend for Dwarves. Anything that allows more mobility is nice for Dwarves. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 08, 2017 - 14:28 |
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I have started using stand firm recently and i am very pleased with it. I think these skills are of very similar value. So i would not take either instead of the other if it costs 10k more to do so.
Food for thought: Having a mix on the team can give serious headaches to the opponent. I think it is better than having either or, as the opponent cant go all in on measures countering either. Ss next to a cage threatening to mark the baller, while the sf pinning a side upon normal block is easily better than having both of either skills. |
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Jeffro
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
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Feb 08, 2017 - 14:42 |
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All points made above are correct... I'll add my two cents.
I love sidestepping elves. It's a key skill on my Pro Elf team in the box... sometimes before block even. That being said, you can surf a sidestepper without any special skills as long as you have the right players in the right place. You can't surf a Stand Firmer without the counter skill. Mass Side-Step is wonderfully annoying, but mass Stand Firm is downright disheartening. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 08, 2017 - 15:12 |
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Stand Firm gets you splooshed in place. Side Step is an artist's skill, lets you choose exactly which square to paint red. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 08, 2017 - 15:29 |
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Side Step can help when you need to affect the ball scatter, either if your ball carrier has it and he's been just knocked down or if your Side Stepper is adjacent to the ball in a square with many opponent tackle zones. |
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Cyrus-Havoc
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
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Feb 08, 2017 - 15:45 |
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I like both skills, & have tried sidesteping dwarves which is both fun & tricky for your opponent.
Stand firm is great at stalling teams, particularly slow teams like Khemri, try it with Necro Golems. Remember you don't have to stand firm so can take the push if you think that suits you better. Its a good antidote to one turn touchdown attempts too.
The key really is access so if you can get stand firm as a normal skill I would take that, with the reverse being true of sidestep. Of course if you have strength access there are lots of other choices. The other thing to consider with any double skill choice is what skills if any that you have already. |
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m0gw41
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
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Feb 08, 2017 - 15:50 |
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Side-step is for elves and ball handlers, an S access dude has no business taking it unless they are a show off. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Feb 08, 2017 - 16:11 |
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Oh and also Side Step can save you one push when one turning and short of men. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Feb 08, 2017 - 16:37 |
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Imo, SF was better in LRB4, when it allowed a failed dodge to be ignored. It was taken more frequently as a double by elves, because it allowed them to try their 5+ cage-breaking dodge every turn without risking a turnover.
Nowadays, it's been nerfed and there is also a counter skill. I'm not saying it's bad, but I don't think it's as good positionally as SS. I find it pretty rare that SF spoils my plans, SS on the other hand ... |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 08, 2017 - 16:38 |
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Stand Firm is for S players and SS is for A players. Now, if you have a player with out S or A then on a double you take guard or dodge.
A dwarf/orc team that focuses on taking Stand Firm on the first or second skill, spam it across the roster and have 8-10 dwarfs/orcs with SF....your foe will be crying, bitching and moaning. Same goes for a elf team who spams SS across the entire roster. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Feb 08, 2017 - 16:46 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | | Imo, SF was better in LRB4 |
...but it was a Trait back then, so not available to Elves even on Doubles, no? Also, TR worked differently than TV nowadays.  |
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