PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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 Posted:
Dec 05, 2016 - 21:44 |
 
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | Activate Box Instead? |
Why would i do that? There are no elves I can get my hands around their throat above TV 1700 in the Box. Just seems like a waste of time.
  
(Plus it is a lot more satisfying in Ranked when they accept the match up and around Turn 2 they realize the gravity of the situation that the trap has been sprung.) |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Dec 05, 2016 - 22:17 |
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I've mentioned several times in this thread, Painstate, yet you keep ignoring me .. Tackle/MB was not the killer combo in LRB4. That is completely wrong. The 'killer combos' were Claw/RSC and Dirty Player. Both of those gave +2 to injury, each of which by themselves are more damaging than TMB. Without PO, this is the least bloody version of BB any of us have seen.
Seems like I'm the only one who actually remembers what LRB4 was like ... |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Dec 05, 2016 - 22:25 |
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Claw/RSC wasn't a real issue. It wasn't common enough to dominate the game. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2016 - 22:40 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | Claw/RSC wasn't a real issue. It wasn't common enough to dominate the game. |
Exactly, and the different fouling mechanics meant that you really didn't even see the same number of fouls per match as you can in CRP.
Though fouling was still better for removal than in CRP.
Removing PO certainly will decrease the in game attrition rate. However, are we sure that's actually a bad thing? So more tweener/elf teams will play at higher TVs, I still don't see the big bash teams actually playing at still higher TVs. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Dec 05, 2016 - 22:47 |
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claw/rsc all mensies |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2016 - 22:51 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | I've mentioned several times in this thread, Painstate, yet you keep ignoring me .. Tackle/MB was not the killer combo in LRB4. That is completely wrong. The 'killer combos' were Claw/RSC and Dirty Player. Both of those gave +2 to injury, each of which by themselves are more damaging than TMB. Without PO, this is the least bloody version of BB any of us have seen.
Seems like I'm the only one who actually remembers what LRB4 was like ... |
I did not ignore you, I just did not want to discuss our two views of LRB4 BUT NOW YOU HAVE FORCED ME TO!!!!
from the 7th plane of hell a cackling laughter can be heard by all mortals
In Lrb4 there was only one way to break Blodge and that was Tackle. You couple Mighty Blow with tackle and now elves did not want anything to do with you. Those were the best odds to achieve a CAS on a block.
Claw/RSC was a good combo but I can only remember a few teams who ran mass C/RSC. Also back in LRB4 days ranked was the main player, you can ignore all tackle and RSC/Claw and Box was the domain of Khemri (DP's from hell).
In LRB4 tackle was supreme to break blodge.
Now we transport to CRP/ BB2016
You have a player with just wrestle, he has broken Blodge.
You have a player with W/T you have negated blodge
You have a player with W/T/MB now you strike fear into blodge.
You have players with all these various combos and 2+ DP...You will bring a world of pain upon them.
CRP/BB2016 now has skills to negate totally Blodge.
Now, there is the issue of the MVP rule. Iam totally confident that elf coaches will ignore their linemen and thus elf teams will have a horde of unskilled linos to maim and kill, it will be a beautiful slaughter.
So the BB2016 meta to counter Blodge is even better and more deadly. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Dec 05, 2016 - 23:11 |
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| licker wrote: | | Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | Claw/RSC wasn't a real issue. It wasn't common enough to dominate the game. |
Exactly, and the different fouling mechanics meant that you really didn't even see the same number of fouls per match as you can in CRP.
Though fouling was still better for removal than in CRP.
Removing PO certainly will decrease the in game attrition rate. However, are we sure that's actually a bad thing? So more tweener/elf teams will play at higher TVs, I still don't see the big bash teams actually playing at still higher TVs. |
I agree, you didn't see as much C/RSC, because it required 2 doubles to get (probably also the reason people didn't whine about it). But, I disagree that fouling was less common in LRB4 - there were way more dp-spam teams (especially in the Box). Tactical fouling gave a higher reward and you were less likely to get sent off than CRP, when the eye wasn't on you.
In Ranked, yes, C/RSC & dp-spam could both be dodged and, from what I recall, there were more high-Tv elf teams around back then, without SE (also with large benches and cash piles for wizards/stars). Elf teams won more FUMBBL majors back then - we have stats on that.
Also, Painstate, don't forget that PO was still present in LRB4, it just only gave a reroll to armor. Now, we don't even have that, so TMB is still watered-down in comparison. Btw, I don't need to mention that Wrestle can't cause injuries and dp is now only +1. My elves will still be happy with the new rules .. their life-insurance premium went down  |
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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Dec 05, 2016 - 23:25 |
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| Matthueycamo wrote: | | Even worse than a concession in ranked/box when moving to league is a forfeit, just in 5 games this season in OWCC I have had 2/5 of my games giving me a forfeit win. |
Indeed, forfeiting games of a round robin Chess championships can get you banned - it compromises ratings, standings, and title norms. However, BB leagues can solve that problem with their chaotic nature - by playing what the DZ1 calls "friendlies" with people from other divisions within your league or from other leagues altogether, if the Commissioner approves (DZ1, Playing a Season in the New Official Rules chapter). Even if friendlies weren't allowed during your league season, playing extra games before entering downtime could still be possible.
In other words, the length of a Fumbbl season does not need to be the same as the length of a league season, and it could be possible to play many league seasons within a Fumbbl season. (Or vice versa.) For example, take ARRR! (because, PC will soon Fling *and* Goblin):
| Quote: | Results are from the best 'sprint' of 16 consecutive qualifying games. All Box games using an Abandoned Race qualify. (Win = 4pts, draw = 2, loss = 1)
You have 2 months to complete your Sprint(s). Check the news tab for when this season began and the next one will start. |
However many times league participants play their ARRR! teams, only the best 16 consecutive games sequence within two months counts toward the league ladder. What are the other games played by the ARRR! teams? Friendlies. Any game that does not count for a tournament or a (meta)league can be seen as a friendly game.
That interpretation applies equally to all Fumbbl divisions. It is independent from any implementation of seasons. Heck, we could drop seasons altogether and say that we're just playing friendlies for all I care. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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| Posted:
Dec 07, 2016 - 04:27 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Seasons are awful btw. I'm probs done with FUMBBL whatever happens but would love to see it thrive. |
You are fully converted to Cyanide? How come? Because of your video commentary stuff? |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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Dec 07, 2016 - 05:43 |
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Mathhammer time. What seasons of various lengths really mean.
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Assumptions.
Based on 1000k + (TD+Cas) * 5k + Games * 10k + Treasury + FF.
Treasury up to 190k near season end, though 290k adds +10 TV for about half the teams that risk it, and only costs -4 TV if it goes bad.
The rule book recommends seasons of length 6-14 games (typically a double round robin between 4-8 teams), plus playoffs.
Teams on fumbbl (where I've tried to exclude CPOMB and POMB as much as possible) have a TD+Cas rate that ranges from 2.5 per game for box elfs, up to 5 per game for the heaviest claw bash (or 8/game for CPOMB spam). Stunty teams get around 3/game, middling teams or ranked elfballers about 3.5/game, developed no-claw heavy teams around 4/game.
That's pretty consistent regardless of builds or coach CR, though I'm sure there's plentiful exceptions. Elves that bash more also usually score less, humans that score more also usually bash less, there's not huge variation.
It takes about 5 games to build 190k treasury from nothing (-20k on average for expensive mistakes). Beyond that you can spend cash on bench, replacements, and more rerolls.
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So after an 8-game season (not including fan factor).
Light teams cut to around 138 TV. They'd add 150k spending cash and +240k or so in skills (average skill is about 24k value, after doubles and stats) through the next season, for around 180 TV Max.
Middling get around 142 TV. Bash get around 144 TV. Claw up to 148 TV. Max TV before cutting again for all of them will be around 180, elves still grow quicker with the easy completion + MVP for first skill.
Any teams really struggle to carry more than a couple of stars, and then often cutting RRs and such to keep them.
Individuals get very hard to keep after 40+ games. Superstars and the odd fast legend max, and then straining the budget.
That's obviously not suited to Box/Ranked and Majors.
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After a 12-game season (not including FF).
Light teams get around 154 TV. They'd add 350k spending cash and +360k or so in skills, but TV is limited by who dies, with a top around 220 TV Max if everything goes well and you happily bloat up.
Middling get around 160 TV. Heavy 163 TV. Claw 169 TV. Adding bench and skills pushes everyone's maximum way up around 230, with the heavier teams being more likely to get all the way to their max without losing anyone important.
This is more easily holding 5-6 really good players, keeping your stat freaks, but surrounded by rookies with minimal RRs. Cash is very tight all the time and losses may not be easily replaced without further limiting the team at season end.
Individuals get very hard to keep after 60+ games. There's room for legends, but not for long in most squads.
That would require very thoughtful building of teams for majors. A lot of teams won't make it to a big TV within the season length, and every loss would really hurt.
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After a 16-game season (not including FF).
Light teams cut to about 163 TV. They'd add 550k of spending cash and ~480k of skills along the next season. Max TV depends on how much bench and rerolls you can add for diminishing effectiveness, and what attrition is like, because you often won't make the around 240 TV Max anyway as everyone can have skills so every loss is a cost.
Middling cut to 171 TV, Heavy to 175 TV, Claw to 183 TV. These are all full teams if you've had any serious damage recently, possibly even a quick boost to TV. Potential TV of the more expensive bash teams could reach up around 260 TV if no one gets hurt. Bloaty teams that have survived well will have to trim all their bench and the odd 2-skill lineman or lesser positional to fit. If you have a bunch of stat freaks in the team, some of the oldest or most damaged will still be let go.
Many new teams here will get a big boost at the end of their first season, adding significantly to bench and rerolls. Anyone who gets smashed in the last few games will similarly appreciate the season end.
All players can add skills, including the new bench, and the real TV limits should be how well you've squeezed in TV that will survive and prosper at the last season end. The last half of the season will be bouncing up and down with the loss of skilled linemen at least, and you might burn a bit of money on cards and stuff along the way.
You can pretty much hold onto any first 11s with a couple RRs, unless you have rather a lot of +stat rolls or a stack of legends.
Individuals get hard to keep after 80+ games. Older Legends want to leave, but a lot don't live this long anyway.
It looks a lot like CRP, to my eye. Just that after a major run, teams won't be able to park for the next immediately, they'll have to end season and work through some rebuilding games to get a bench back and skill a new kick/DP lineman or whatever else didn't make the cut.
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+9 rounds of fumbbl cup for ... up to 24 game season (still not including FF)
OK, so weak cut to 173, middling 185, bash 191, claw 203. That's almost no cuts at all. Top 2016 fumbbl cup teams would often not lose a thing post-season, some would gain, a few lose bench and maybe one good player and cut to 1 RR for the biggest ones. Teams may be bigger more often at 16 game seasons and cut more, but probably not much.
Recovery of any cuts would be just a few games, with most of the remaining season free for multiple tournament entries before having to reset again. 16-game seasons that don't end in tournaments mean successful teams will often be able to run a whole year of Majors after one good tournament performance and just a few building games at most.
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I don't think a 30 game season does anything. From 190 to 230 TV? It doesn't help teams that get torn up because you're nowhere near the end of the season usually. It doesn't age players, almost no one lives 120+ games and so few teams even go that long here. It doesn't cut players from anything but the few most massively bloated teams ever, and for the most part it's just a free bench with a bunch of RRs if you want them for anyone who plays that long.
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TLDR: 16 games is almost too long, seasons clearly function better with less games (promoting team building, interesting choices, and player preservation). But if they suffered any deaths or bad perms, less games would also leave most teams a bit small after rebuilding, because you're still cash limited in old teams up to about 12 games. There's probably only about 200k to cover early rookie deaths/retirements in a 16-game season and still maximise TV at the end of it. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 07, 2016 - 07:05 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Seasons are awful btw. I'm probs done with FUMBBL whatever happens but would love to see it thrive. |
You are fully converted to Cyanide? How come? Because of your video commentary stuff? |
I can't speak for Jimmy, and I'm not done with FUMBBL, but the Champion Seasons (not to be confused with BB2016 seasons... yet...) are much more entertaining than tournaments (because it's not one and done) and Box, because there's an actual goal and prizes and such.
If FUMBBL implements seasons in a way similar to the CCL in BB2 then I think that would be pretty cool. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Dec 07, 2016 - 11:09 |
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| licker wrote: | | garyt1 wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Seasons are awful btw. I'm probs done with FUMBBL whatever happens but would love to see it thrive. |
You are fully converted to Cyanide? How come? Because of your video commentary stuff? |
I can't speak for Jimmy, and I'm not done with FUMBBL, but the Champion Seasons (not to be confused with BB2016 seasons... yet...) are much more entertaining than tournaments (because it's not one and done) and Box, because there's an actual goal and prizes and such.
If FUMBBL implements seasons in a way similar to the CCL in BB2 then I think that would be pretty cool. |
I though your main complaint was that you couldn't get a Box game when you wanted to play. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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@tussock: That's great analysis, cheers. I'd been wanting to do it myself but not found the time. I think a point often disregarded is how seasons help lower TV or beat-up teams. We're looking at applying the rules to our tabletop league (currently at season end) and it'll actually help 3 teams a lot: The Goblins, Ogres and Lizards (who lost a Krox and a couple of Sauri). This isn't a bad thing IMO, certainly in tabletop. It allows teams to be competitive year-on-year when otherwise they'd be almost forced to retire and restart. |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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Dec 07, 2016 - 13:16 |
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Now that's a very useful contribution, tussock. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Dec 07, 2016 - 15:41 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Seasons are awful btw. I'm probs done with FUMBBL whatever happens but would love to see it thrive. |
You are fully converted to Cyanide? How come? Because of your video commentary stuff? |
A couple of reasons.
Biggest one is that I no longer have a crappy laptop. Playing FUMBBL on a proper monitor kills my eyes and makes it almost unplayable. If scaling up the client ever happens then I'll be back for something.
The second reason was that when I did make an effort to play on FUMBBL in tournaments the scheduling was a massive headache and I didn't get a prize for the Stunty Cup that I won. |
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