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Poll
Do You Play In The Blackbox Tournament?
Yes, I've finished my 200 games.
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Yes, I'm on my way to finishing the 200 games.
17%
 17%  [ 11 ]
Yes, but I won't be finishing the 200 games.
51%
 51%  [ 33 ]
No, I've never joined.
26%
 26%  [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 64


ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 15:02 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="Kondor"]
ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Kondor wrote:



The burden isn't on me to tell you why not, it's on you to make a compelling case for.

But considering a number of people taking part in the box trophy were annoyed at having to play vs teams that weren't involved (and were usually older), it would suggest allowing old teams to enter would fly in the face of good sportmanship.

Especially since an older team has had multiple opportunities to trim the fat, allocate spp on particular players, and most of all, has not necessarily being playing games where points must be accrued - and so has had multiple opportunities to attain "garbage time" SPP or simply protect players if the coach so wishes.


Actually, this is not the case. Jake Steel has disappeared. Koadah and I are the ones who picked this up when he disappeared. Therefore, it is up to us to listen to the group and use our best judgements to determine if there should be changes to season 2.

Obviously, if Christer is interested in this his voice will be law. Honestly, since Koadah has more experience here than I do, I will defer to him entirely. If neither of them want to be involved, I will act as commissioner and make the final decision.

I want to point out that I am not making any arguments one way or another. I am simply listening to suggestions I have received and taking them into consideration.

Having said that, I have not heard from anyone who was unhappy that they had to play people not participating in the tournament much less several participants. If that is the case, I would ask people to contact Koadah or myself so we can hear your feedback.

Additionally, since you did not participate in the current format, I would be more interested in knowing what could persuade you to join. If you do not plan on joining in any case, your opinion is completely irrelevant to the conversation.


No offense intended, but the only commish of this right now *is* Christer, even with his removed status - he set up the tracking, the squad creation, everything. The thread and a few hastily thrown together badges are a nice touch, but really, nobody is curating this more than big C.

My observations about people not liking playing older teams comes from experience of playing vs a few people who did take part. And also from having spectated plenty of games where people were far from impressed at drawing a 100+ game team with their 15-20 game old newbie trophy team. And from seeing match reports exactly stating this.

I've no objection to creating a seperate trophy for high tv/existing teams, where you'd effectively just be tracking an extended sprint, but the reality is, it's completely unfair to allow established teams to compete against those who will grow naturally over their 40. If you cannot see that, then I cannot help you - but bear in mind there are plenty of people who think that a strict "games played" addition to the algorithm for box draws would make for far fairer games (and yes, this would murder draw potential, and is why it doesn't happen).


As for why I didn't participate - I've moved country, job, and frankly don't have the time any more. I did intend to do it anyway, but frankly I have no intention of playing Bloodbowl while the inducements system works as it does.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 15:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh and btw, as an additional thing - asking for feedback via PM or the forums is completely asinine, and shows a real lack of actual understanding of the community on FUMBBL - the vast majority of coaches do not actually participate in forum discussions, nor will PM a random coach. Look at our top 10 for the box trophy right now and you will see a number of Francophiles (viva le charisme!), these guys are not often chatting because they do not feel comfortable with their English. Bear that in mind when you say "i've heard nothing, contact me".

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 15:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Just to be clear, I am only commenting as 'just another coach'. Nothing more. I did begin building a system for this trophy, but as Christer got in first I didn't bother continuing with it.

I am only commenting from the point of view of what I like to play and discussions I have had with people about Sprints and CCL.

It is Christer's show to run. But it did seem a bit odd that the ideas of a guy with only 14 games seemed to get implemented with no questions asked. Not at all odd if it's Christers second account. Wink

Edit: The main take away from CCL discussions IMO is that the goals of maximising the number of people playing and creating a 'competitive' tournament often conflict.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 16:51 Reply with quote Back to top

I wonder why Christer should have used a second account, he didn't need it because he could have just used his to achieve the same goal.
While we trust Christer, trusting an almost unknown guy required faith.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 18:41 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Oh and btw, as an additional thing - asking for feedback via PM or the forums is completely asinine, and shows a real lack of actual understanding of the community on FUMBBL - the vast majority of coaches do not actually participate in forum discussions, nor will PM a random coach. Look at our top 10 for the box trophy right now and you will see a number of Francophiles (viva le charisme!), these guys are not often chatting because they do not feel comfortable with their English. Bear that in mind when you say "i've heard nothing, contact me".


No offense taken. It is very true that Chirister has complete control over this and every other aspect of Fumbbl. I just don't know how involved he really wants to be or how much control he wants. Obviously, he will decide where he wants to spend the time he dedicates to Fumbbl.

Honestly, I am very grateful for the chance to play this game on this site and when Jake Steel disappeared I volunteered to help. It was a way I could help the community a bit.

I'll not comment in this thread further. I've said all that I need to say. I will simply be listening to the participants and see where this goes.
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 18:51 Reply with quote Back to top

I think overall the Blackbox Trophy is a success and I see no reason to make major changes. It encouraged diversity in races and allowed the number of box matches to overtake ranked for 3 months straight - Nov.to Jan., something that hadn't happened since 2013 if I'm reading the statistics right. As I look through the Blacbox Trophy standings page, I see a lot of established coaches who have participated but importantly (as AD notes) a lot of coaches you won't see active on the forums/discord and a fair amount of coaches newer to FUMBBL too.

I think new teams is the closest thing to a "fair/equal start" that you can get with BB, and a lot of those newer coaches may not enter if older teams are allowed to enter as well. The problems it could bring up just aren't worth appeasing a few really vocal coaches imo.

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Gartch



Joined: Sep 07, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 19:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I prefer it's still for new teams only. I agree with Rbthma opinion (the message before mine).

If old teams are allowed, I'm afraid it will encourage coaches to use high tv Nurgle and Chaos and deter new coaches to come.
If old teams are allowed, I suggest to make Nurgle and Chaos teams "more expensive", I mean they cost 4 points in the teams creation process. (but I think the best solution is just to stick to new teams only).
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 19:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I wonder if there could be some refinement of the team tiers.

Also, I would really like to see two trophy hunts:

One for new teams and one for established teams i.e. ones that have existed and played games before the most contemporary trophy hunt. This would allow for coaches like me and MattDakka to play the teams we love or are currently interested in with the tier constraints in place and add a bit more flavor to the competition soup.


Last edited by mrt1212 on Jul 17, 2018 - 19:52; edited 2 times in total
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 19:47
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Before conspiracy theories go more wild than they have already, let me chime in on why I implemented this...

First of all, I have no reason to use an alias to suggest ideas. If I want something to be done on the site, I'll do it without needing to hide behind an anonymous account.

When Jake posted about this, a lot of people seemed to think it was a cool idea. Yes, he was offering $100 or whatever to the winner (which at this point seems unbelievably unlikely to happen at this point), but the core idea is pretty good and a lot of people showed interest in this and were already starting to make squads using the forum.

From my perspective, a big showing of interest combined with a relatively simple implementation and me having some spare time makes it pretty much a no-brainer for me to add direct support for. There's now 74 days remaining for this thing and interest is still there. That's a solid foundation for something worth putting more time into, so I would be more than happy to push this into another season and take input on what could be done to keep things interesting.

Now, I don't see myself allowing old teams join into a new round of this thing just as-is. The first few matches are especially tough in this environment and is part of the challenge, and having 40+ game old teams allowed to participate doesn't seem fair. Maybe this could work if the season rule was introduced?

I wouldn't mind having a second season being exactly the same as the first one. You make a new squad, sign up and get going. Same number of teams, same number of games, same time period. At the same time, I realize this is a huge undertaking for a lot of people, and simply excludes them from being part of it. Maybe there should be a shorter version of it (6 months? 3 months?).. Maybe there could be a three team version? There are all sorts of variations possible, even introducing the ability to retire and replace a team from your squad..

I haven't participated in this trophy, nor have I put in much of an effort into keeping track of it. From my perspective, it's mostly been a coach-initiated effort that I added some code for to help you guys track. It's been wildly successful from a high level perspective and I see no reason to not continue exploring the format once this season has ended.


Last edited by Christer on Jul 18, 2018 - 14:15; edited 1 time in total
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 20:09 Reply with quote Back to top

From quickly counting the matches on the Blackbox Trophy page I get 11641 matches played (there will be some duplicates where two BBT teams play each other) by 267 coaches in the competition, so 43.59 matches on average per participant.

Considering that from Nov.2017 to June 2018 there were 17,777 total box matches, I'd say the BBT matches were a considerable percentage of those.

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Tzalaran



Joined: Mar 01, 2018

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

my son and i are new to the site and therefore missed this, but we'd both participate in a season 2...
Rags



Joined: Nov 09, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 21:37 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Rags wrote:
Kondor wrote:
...
Anyway, there are still a couple of months to kick this around.


I would have thought it'd be new teams each season. But what about implementing season rules from Death Zone season 1?


No. These are still box teams, they can still play anyone after they are 31+.


If people want to play old teams, they can play them. They just won't be in the trophy - same as all of us who decided we'd rather just keep playing what we had than grind out 200 games on new rosters.


Sorry, didn't make myself clear at all here. What I meant was when current Trophy cycle ends, one option might be to apply Death Zone rules to teams already participating, as well as permitting new entries with rookie teams.

I don't know if this idea has any merit at all, since I haven't got a copy of DZ yet. It just seemed like it might be a way to align with BB 2016.

That was it, but I'm sure some will want to point out that there'll be disparities between veteran and rookie teams.

My response would be yes of course, that's the same in every field of endeavour, and all have to start somewhere. It's next to impossible to come up with a system that can't be gamed, so the best thing is to take responsibility for yourself and play fairly.

Again this is all uninformed, as haven't read new DZ, so if it's silly, my apologies and thanks for your patience/
GAZZATROT



Joined: Apr 26, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 21:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:


It's been wildly successful from a high level perspective and I see no reason to continue exploring the format once this season has ended.


I presume there was a typo at the end there Christer?

As it reads you aren't interested in continuing it.

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GAZZATROT



Joined: Apr 26, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 21:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Tzalaran wrote:
my son and i are new to the site and therefore missed this, but we'd both participate in a season 2...


I love the fact you have introduced a new generation to the game!

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 22:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Rags wrote:
Again this is all uninformed, as haven't read new DZ, so if it's silly, my apologies and thanks for your patience/

All teams in Blackbox and Ranked follow the same set of rules. Various new rules related to BB2016 and DZ have been implemented on FUMBBL. Not sure where the thread is on that.. But we don't have some of the cards, nor the various cheaper wizard types or odd pitches. Overall the rules are in a good state here.

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Last edited by garyt1 on Jul 18, 2018 - 02:07; edited 2 times in total
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