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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 31, 2020 - 22:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I have caught up with the blog post suggesting 1350 as the re-draft budget.

Happy with that for Box but given it is an optional rule I hope that is will be implemented that way and Leagues can then choose to ignore if they wish. From the wording it is annoying they have put a fixed cap as an optional rule rather than having "1.3 or other value set by commissioner".

With winning being much higher it will be easier to replace players. My expectation is most teams will sit on 200k Treasury and be spending anything above it on Inducements every game.

Goblins will have a Biased Ref every game and maybe a bribe. Elves will be overflowing with beer kegs. I see this as a meta where Inducements are much more of a key part of a teams tactics not something you only look at when you are a massive underdog.

The next question is what is our actual TV if we are carrying players over.

End of...
Season 1: 5 Players x 20k = 100k agency fees = TV 1250 max.
Season 2: 4 Players x 40k = 160k agency fees = TV 1190 max.
Season 3: 3 Players x 60k = 180k agency fees = TV 1170 max.

It used to be trying to get lucky with the double or 10+ on the skill roll. Now it will be getting lucky on the random skill roll to have a player who is cheaper and thus your effective TV, when compared to current teams, will be higher.

6 SPP and +20 TV gets you one Primary skill of your choice
7 SPP and +20 TV gets you TWO Primary skill at Random.

If you are wanting Block/Wrestle you have a 32% chance of getting one of them with random rolls. There are also plenty of other good General skills I would pay for on linemen. Anyone want a 50k DP Zombie rather than a 60k one?

Sure you will also end up with the Frenzy & Shadowing guy sometimes but then you just fire them. You are awash with cash and you are getting a million gold again in a few more games so who cares?


The first loophole I found is you can decide to not spend SPP until you have enough for a stat increase; but can then spend them on anything. If you spent your first season not buying skills you can carry over a bunch of cheap players and at the end of game of the next season suddenly get a massive TV boost!
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 16:55 Reply with quote Back to top

To be honest you will not be able to rely on lucky random rolls as you will only get them rarely and even more rarely in sequence of useful skills suck as say Tackle/MB combo for example.

As you will have to recycle players between seasons and eventually you will find them too expensive you will have to go with what you get.

I also find it strange you would hoard SPP... why... a skill now is more important than later in almost all situations in League play.

I doubt you will keep many players beyond two or three seasons most of the time now.

This is why I believe that chosen secondary skills will be allot more rare now and stat improvements even more so. As getting skills early will be quite important in League play.

I can see that most players will get a combination of chosen and randomly selected primary skills most of the time. Even situational skills will be useful now when they bloat your TV very little aside from some rare situations.
vaclav



Joined: Mar 21, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 17:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I dont understand of any you all are saying, except that i wont be able to make a legend goblin in my orc team and that makes me sad...
https://imgur.com/jU7gsox
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 17:50 Reply with quote Back to top

vaclav wrote:
I dont understand of any you all are saying, except that i wont be able to make a legend goblin in my orc team and that makes me sad...


Sure you can... it only takes 46 SPP to get a Legendary player now if you roll all random primary skills. Wink
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 17:56 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
I also find it strange you would hoard SPP... why... a skill now is more important than later in almost all situations in League play.

As getting skills early will be quite important in League play.

Winning a League means having the best team for a season. My thinking is you get to carry over players cheap because of there unspent SPP then get a boost in TV and skills once you spend them.

If you had a poor start and can no longer make the playoffs actually leveling up makes it more expensive to carry those players over. If you cannot win the current season of the League what value will those extra skills bring you?

CAB wrote:
I can see that most players will get a combination of chosen and randomly selected primary skills most of the time. Even situational skills will be useful now when they bloat your TV very little aside from some rare situations.

I was looking at Trolls for a Goblin team and thinking I would just take Block and then most of the Strength skills for 10k each on a random shot look reasonable.

CAB wrote:
This is why I believe that chosen secondary skills will be allot more rare now and stat improvements even more so. As getting skills early will be quite important in League play.
I was looking at Mutations and thinking would I actually want to spend 40k to pick one of these on a Skaven team?

Assuming I had 3 decent Gutter Runners and had hired a new rookie I could see taking a punt at random mutation for 20k. Either he gets lucky and I can build around it for a couple of seasons or he gets replaced.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 18:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
Winning a League means having the best team for a season. My thinking is you get to carry over players cheap because of there unspent SPP then get a boost in TV and skills once you spend them.

If you had a poor start and can no longer make the playoffs actually leveling up makes it more expensive to carry those players over. If you cannot win the current season of the League what value will those extra skills bring you?

I was looking at Trolls for a Goblin team and thinking I would just take Block and then most of the Strength skills for 10k each on a random shot look reasonable.

I was looking at Mutations and thinking would I actually want to spend 40k to pick one of these on a Skaven team?

Assuming I had 3 decent Gutter Runners and had hired a new rookie I could see taking a punt at random mutation for 20k. Either he gets lucky and I can build around it for a couple of seasons or he gets replaced.


If you are the underdog then you probably have less money to draft your team next season as well so saving up on upgrading some players might be a sound and valued tactic to do, probably even considered as a good equaliser by the designers as well in my opinion.

If you save up 12 SPP to buy Block on that Troll I might already have used three random strength skills on mine for a while and we are half or more games into the season. That is the trade off for waiting and an important consideration.
If the Troll is a player you intend to redraft I might probably be inclined to go that route... otherwise I would not do it. To be honest... most Big Guys are probably better of with random skills and not redrafted between seasons. In a Goblin team though it can make sense to redraft your Big Guys but in most other teams I probably would not do it.

But I see these kind of decisions as something fresh with the new rules.

Many players can chance for one or two random which you then tries to build around, especially lineman or if you have more than two players for a specific position like a human Blitzer for example.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 18:44 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

If you are the underdog then you probably have less money to draft your team next season as well so saving up on upgrading some players might be a sound and valued tactic to do, probably even considered as a good equaliser by the designers as well in my opinion.

I think that depends if your League is using the 1.3 mill cap. It seems as written very easy to get to that even for a poor performance team.

8 League Games with two wins, 6 lose = 200k;
Treasury = 100k

CAB wrote:

If you save up 12 SPP to buy Block on that Troll I might already have used three random strength skills on mine for a while and we are half or more games into the season. That is the trade off for waiting and an important consideration.
If the Troll is a player you intend to redraft I might probably be inclined to go that route...

I should probably expand. With two Trolls on the team.
    First season one can be random skills the other waits for Block. Redraft both cost 40k.
    Second season skill them both up with most Random, maybe pick a Guard if needed. Redraft Block Troll for +40k
    Season Three build a second Block troll. Redraft both for +80k (getting expensive).
    Season Four: Two Block Trolls but we will struggle to redraft both.


CAB wrote:

most Big Guys are probably better of with random skills and not redrafted between seasons.

I agree with you on that. You have enough cash to hire them after a couple of games and just wave them goodbye at the end of the season.

CAB wrote:

Many players can chance for one or two random which you then tries to build around, especially lineman or if you have more than two players for a specific position like a human Blitzer for example.

There are a lot of good General skills and I cannot see many Linemen being worth calling back for a third season. 7 SPP for two skills and you rehire the goods for one more season.

It also may be where we see the second thrower on teams. Hire them mid season and give them a couple of random skills and they may be a better pick to rehire than your current thrower.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 21:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes... regarding the Troll I assumed you had two Trolls and in a Goblin team keeping at least one of the from one season to the next probably is a good thing, if not both. Having two expensive Trolls in a Goblin team probably not a particularly big problem. If you mostly spend random General and Agility skills on Goblins you can just keep the ones who get good skills you need and not re-hire the ones that don't.

I think this is a good thing with the new rules because it means that teams at any particular point in time will have more varied skills but an old team will have a more competitive team as they have had time to develop good player for a relatively low TV.

I don't see this as a problem but rather a strength with the new rules because it will give us more interesting team builds and the possibility to use skills that we would perhaps not use if we chosen them, but for a mere 10k TV even most situational skills are pretty good. Even an old team will have lots of these skills on their players.

I also think that the game is fundamentally balanced around having a redrafting limit at around 1300 plus treasury so maybe between 1300-1500 approximately in realistic terms.

I think the game is balanced around teams being at between 1300-1800 TV. We also have to acknowledge that teams in general will be more expensive in TV as skills in general either are more random or expensive. Adding a player with a chosen secondary... say a Human Blitzer with Dodge is an increase in TV of 40k which is quite significant for one single skill. The question is of one Dodge skill is roughly equal to three to four randomly generated or two chosen primary skills, perhaps sometimes it is though.

For a simple lineman I could see myself, say, selecting kick for a lineman but if another get a random kick skill that is the one I hire back next season. Any lineman who roll a random Block or Wrestle are probably someone you will rehire for a few seasons for sure. After a couple of seasons you probably will have a few seasoned lineman with good skill but you will have to pay for them in rehiring fees.

To me these things seem like a refreshing and interesting take on teams and also give players some choices to make when rehiring player between seasons.

It also create choices during seasons as well as you have to decide when to take skills. It's not as if you know how many or how long it will take for a specific player to get a certain amount of SPP either.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 22:01 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

I also think that the game is fundamentally balanced around having a redrafting limit at around 1300 plus treasury so maybe between 1300-1500 approximately in realistic terms.

If the cap was 1300 + Treasury I would be a lot happier. As I read the rules it capped after not before Treasury has been added to the budget.

In fact I would have much preferred the cap to be on the TV of the returning team rather than the draft budget.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Humm... I realized that the cap also include any gold from the treasury... I think the cap should be for games played and treasury added after that but a league probably could house rule the numbers anyway they wish.

Leagues are probably going to be house ruled anyway and given the level of team development that the players in the league wants it to have.

Personally I think that teams in BB2016 are best balanced around 1300-1600TV and those games are the most interesting as no team is perfectly developed but can have spikes of good players or teams developed in a certain theme.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 22:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Yup, the primary issue is that some teams will inherently end up with more gold than other teams (good coach, good AV, cheap players, etc); so the cap has to include the treasury else those teams just get an automatic boost to tv, before even seeing the results of the season. League (I hope) will have options to change those numbers where they wish, but whatever cap is used, treasury will need to be included.
Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 23:05 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
vaclav wrote:
I dont understand of any you all are saying, except that i wont be able to make a legend goblin in my orc team and that makes me sad...


Sure you can... it only takes 46 SPP to get a Legendary player now if you roll all random primary skills. Wink


So fun...

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pielover101



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2020 - 23:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I keep seeing that we're getting way more winnings, but from what I can tell we'll have about the same winnings. Currently you get 35k on the d6, ~9k for the outcome (If you reroll 1s 2s and 3s you get 7.5k) and ~5k for fans (sometimes you tie and no one gets money, sometimes someone gets 2x) for 49k total. New edition will give you 35k (dedicated fans will naturally gravitate to 3 and 4) and say ~1.3 touchdowns/game (I'm barely above average and get 1.33) for 48k. Add the higher chance of permanent injury and it's going to feel like a lot less.

The main difference is how much winnings you can hoard without risking it to expensive mistakes.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2020 - 09:23 Reply with quote Back to top

pielover101 wrote:
New edition will give you 35k (dedicated fans will naturally gravitate to 3 and 4) and say ~1.3 touchdowns/game (I'm barely above average and get 1.33) for 48k. Add the higher chance of permanent injury and it's going to feel like a lot less.

The main difference is how much winnings you can hoard without risking it to expensive mistakes.

Both Teams have Fans and your FF is DF + D3 for the match.

My DF of 4 gives both teams 20k winnings; but I am getting same from yours.

DF Is also more likely to go up than down. I have not done the match but if we assume Both teams have DF 4 + 2 on a d3 + 1 TD = 70k as the baseline.

Also when a good team plays a bad team the difference in DF should help balance out. Exstreams of Red DF 7 + Blue DF 1 + 2d3 still gives us an average of 12,000 fans for our Fan Attendance (gate) roll.

pielover101 wrote:
Add the higher chance of permanent injury and it's going to feel like a lot less.

There is the same change for a stat bust a higher chance for MNG or Niggle. While that will effect the one game following Niggles no longer effect on pitch performance and can heal at end of season. Combined with less chance of death this means for me less money spent on replacement players.
pielover101



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2020 - 09:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I double checked and you're right on Fan Attendance payouts, and DF would gravitate to 4 because it goes up but not down on ties (DF, FF and Fan Attendance all made things confusing :/ )
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