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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

Chaos is a tier 2 team so you should struggle with them a bit, that is part of Blood Bowl.

Indeed, but Chaos in CRP struggled early, then over time got better.
With the new rules Chaos will struggle at any stage.
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 00:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I have been thinking about the Chaos Meta over the last while and I think that, while obviously going to be radically different, I don't think it's as bad as I and many others considered at first. It is still a significant downgrade from before, but I don't think its unsalvageable.

Some considerations I and one of my buddies had.

- Random skills will now play a pivotol role in Chaos development.

Essentially, you will randomize a mutation skill and from there specialize that player towards a particular skill.

- Single skills distributed over 4-5 players

This was another consideration. My https://fumbbl.com/~Wolbum/Bloodhound+Gorefiends team which I used in a Rez tourney amounts to about 1230 TV, with 7 skills. I think, at least in league format, this is functionally what the new face of Chaos teams will be like, at least in terms of skill spread.

- Min maxing 1-2 players

Neilwat mentioned earlier he managed to play Nurgle nicely in a BB2020 league format with redraft. His means of entering the second season post redraft was to nurture a Bloater to have the Block/Claw/MB, and have a single ball carrying pestigor. I think this is another pathway we may see for Chaos Chosen teams.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 09:07 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
CAB wrote:

Chaos is a tier 2 team so you should struggle with them a bit, that is part of Blood Bowl.

Indeed, but Chaos in CRP struggled early, then over time got better.
With the new rules Chaos will struggle at any stage.


Yes... initially Chaos usually struggles... but after about five games you usually have enough basic skills for the team to work just fine. When you draft a team you should be able to keep enough players to start the team at that point.

Also... using more random skills make the team cheaper as well and pay for some of those agent fees at the start of a season.

Chaos have always been a staple game in our leagues which over the last decade or so have never had high TV teams at all. Chaos still always managed to do very well despite this.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 09:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Wolbum wrote:

- Min maxing 1-2 players

Neilwat mentioned earlier he managed to play Nurgle nicely in a BB2020 league format with redraft. His means of entering the second season post redraft was to nurture a Bloater to have the Block/Claw/MB, and have a single ball carrying pestigor. I think this is another pathway we may see for Chaos Chosen teams.


Isnt this what smallman does for his Box teams for which he was derided for? Now the wheel turns...
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Wolbum wrote:

- Random skills will now play a pivotol role in Chaos development.

Essentially, you will randomize a mutation skill and from there specialize that player towards a particular skill.


i don't think that will happen. why would you want a very long legs blocker? chaos need basic skills too badly to rely on random.

random skills can work for teams that start with lots of block and have great access. as in dorfs.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 12:09 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

Yes... initially Chaos usually struggles... but after about five games you usually have enough basic skills for the team to work just fine.

Which could be ok, if Chaos had not to face the feared Dwarf teams spam with the new rules, as many people suspect.

Why struggling to build a Chaos team when you can play Dwarfs and have all the core skills from the game 1 on? And more easily redraftable too, because Dwarf players need just 1 skill or 2.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 13:29 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
CAB wrote:

Yes... initially Chaos usually struggles... but after about five games you usually have enough basic skills for the team to work just fine.

Which could be ok, if Chaos had not to face the feared Dwarf teams spam with the new rules, as many people suspect.

Why struggling to build a Chaos team when you can play Dwarfs and have all the core skills from the game 1 on? And more easily redraftable too, because Dwarf players need just 1 skill or 2.


I don't think we have the same philosophy with this game... playing with Chaos is a challenge and that is why they are in Tier 2 and not in Tier 1 as Dwarves are. Chaos give a different feeling than Dwarves so you can't compare them.

Chaos will probably hold their own pretty well all things considering overall.

Dwarves are really slow so as a Chaos coach you need to use more than kill and fighting skills to outplay the Dwarves. It should be possible to gain local advantage in strength through clever player positioning and use of cheap mutation skills.

If there are allot of Dwarf teams they also will tend to attrition each other as well... Wink

But I think my view is mainly in League play and not matchmaking play.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 13:57 Reply with quote Back to top

see the problem I have is.. why are there Tier 2 teams? I understand tier 3 teams, having 2-5 joke teams can be fun, but.. why tier 2? that's just a trap.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 14:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Many people have a different philosophy to Matt. Wink

However, I don't think that this is a league vs matchmaking thing.

On Fumbbl, you may have it backward. I think that many leagues will be playing to higher TV than matchmaking. So chaos still have the potential to be decent. Tier one for me.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 14:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Chaos roster could have been made differently, for example random mutation on starting players (at least on the 4 Chosen). That would have been fun and fluffy, without being overpowered due to Season Redraft.
The roster doesn't capture the random essence of Chaos.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 15:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Not to toot my own horn but it's perfectly possible to have an above 50% winrate with rookie chaos in the first 10 games or so. I've got a box team that's done 8 games so far and was 4-1-0 in the first 5 games (now it's on 4-1-3 Rolling Eyes )

I get it, they no longer have a sweet spot or an achievable ideal development level, I'd say that makes coaching chaos more interesting. Probably harder, too.

Obligatory moan about "dorfs didn't get hit by the nerf bat tho" to conclude the comment.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 15:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Lets move away from the Power team and back to Chaos.

We already have the basic 1 mill team 7 Runners, 4 Blockers, 3 TRR

For our 1300 cap we can get
2 Blockers with Blk,Guard; Quarterback (B, SH,2H); Killer (MB,B,C); and a fifth player with a single skill.

If we get he full 1500-1600 kgp we can add Apo and Big Guy for Season 2.

Season 3 those five players cost an exta 100k (bye bye Big Guy)

Season 4 we need to have cycled some of them through for newer players. That is why I think you can only carry 2-3 Blockers over each season. This allows you to always have a cheaper option, albeit with less skills, to rehire at end of season.

This again promotes Random skills to help keep player cost down. The team has less deaths but you will cycle through Beastmen Runners looking to get 'good' or 'average' skills since you cannot afford to rehire most of those players for a second/third season anyway.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 16:50 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Chaos roster could have been made differently, for example random mutation on starting players (at least on the 4 Chosen). That would have been fun and fluffy, without being overpowered due to Season Redraft.
The roster doesn't capture the random essence of Chaos.


While I don't dispute that would be fun they also would become more expensive as well, I presume at least 10k.

But sure... that would have been fun... Smile

I think they could have redrawn allot of the teams to fit into the new rules and skills available for more variation. I think they instead will introduce more teams rather than remake the old ones.

I think there would have been a literal uprising if they completely revamped all the old teams.

In terms of Chaos they probably will introduce new Chaos teams for each of the Chaos Gods and keep the old Chaos Chosen as is. Perhaps even drop the Chosen at some point as they become redundant.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 17:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Not redundant because they could represent the Chaos Undivided.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 17:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I do not see them ever dropping teams. The half page they would need for a roster is not much.

One of the questions for redraft is how many seasons will people really play a team? Many of us like the idea of playing team for ten or more seasons. Our local league though we have to bin the team after three seasons. Two seasons of building and then a final push for the Trophy could work. You rehire with hoarded SPP and spent them all after game 1.

Quite a lot of work though Idea
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