43 coaches online • Server time: 01:28
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post LitBowl Online 2021goto Post BB2020 Death Zone ha...goto Post DIBBL Season 24 (NZ ...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
Is AG 4/AG 5 (AG 2+/1+) broken?
YES
12%
 12%  [ 2 ]
NO
81%
 81%  [ 13 ]
depends on opponent
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 16


neuro_



Joined: Aug 15, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 01:41 Reply with quote Back to top

https://dice.clockworkmod.com/ for dice stats.
If we were to use D8s rather than D6s for the purpose of passing and dodging (also applicable for a new D8 Block Die):

-WITHOUT RR-
2+ goes from 83/17 to 87/13 pass/fail %
3+ from 67/33 to 75/25
4+ from 50/50 to 62/38
5+ from 33/67 to 50/50
rest are mirrored^

-WITH RR-
2+ drops from 97/3 to 98/2 pass/fail %
3+ drops from 89/11 to 94/6
4+ goes from 75/25 to 86/14
5+ falls from 56/44 to 75/25
6+ from 31/69 to 61/39
check out the rest yourself Cool

SO:
Firstly, these changes would obviously need testing and changing to fit with the current players: I think that AG 2+ and 3+ players can remain largely the same, with some players e.g linemen having 4+ dodges instead. Big guys would need AG 5,6 or even 7+ to avoid shenanigans.
I think that the main problem lies in the modifiers for Dodging. How many times has an Elf or skaven casually 3+ed its way past you?! I suggest these new dice, but with a -2 per target TZ rather than -1. Alternatively, a flat -1 if dodging into any zones as well as the current modifiers. *These proposed changes make safe dodges safer and risky dodges riskier*.

Passing:
Everyone knows, to put it nicely, that passing is shite. These changes make it a LOT better, and thanks to only passing players having PA 2+, not too powerful and/or meta-defining (I think). Also, Interception and Interference is still a thing.

Any criticisms, suggestions and/or devils' advocate points are welcome! Razz


Last edited by neuro_ on Mar 13, 2021 - 00:55; edited 2 times in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 01:47 Reply with quote Back to top

so you want to make dodging or passing MORE reliable if there is no problem, and LESS reliable if you are doing it with normal penalties like one tackle zone?

i disagree with what you are trying to do. Elves/gutters already dodge away from someone too often on a 2+ - that causes far more problems than them trying to dodge into a tackle zone. Teams that do not already dodge on a 2+ normally would NEVER be able to dodge into a tackle zone, which is a horrible idea.
neuro_



Joined: Aug 15, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 01:48 Reply with quote Back to top

For -2 per zone, base 2+ dodge:
1 zone: 86/14 opposed to 89/11 on D6s
2 zones: 61/39, compared with 75/25 on D6s.
3+ zones: 23/77, against 56/44 on D6s.

For AG 3+:
1 zone: 75/25 against 75/25
2 zones: 44/56 against 56/44
3+ zones: 23/77 against 31/69


Last edited by neuro_ on Mar 07, 2021 - 02:18; edited 2 times in total
neuro_



Joined: Aug 15, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 01:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
so you want to make dodging or passing MORE reliable if there is no problem, and LESS reliable if you are doing it with normal penalties like one tackle zone?

i disagree with what you are trying to do. Elves/gutters already dodge away from someone too often on a 2+ - that causes far more problems than them trying to dodge into a tackle zone. Teams that do not already dodge on a 2+ normally would NEVER be able to dodge into a tackle zone, which is a horrible idea.


I'd like to think my idea encourages setting up a safe dodge to score rather than desperately 4+ 4+ 3+ 3+ 2+ 2+ to victory with the ghoul/elf/runner etc. I wanted to make dodging with non- AG 2+ teams nore reliable, without making the AG 2+ teams too strong. The inspiration for me was that blocking is almost always as good as or better than dodging, even on a 2+. That means that if your opponent throws in a strong player, they can pretty easily force you to risk a 1/36, or 1/9 for an AG 3+ player; 4x as bad. With D8s it's only 3x as bad as AG 2+, and half as likely to fail overall.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 12:21 Reply with quote Back to top

My idea is
D8 Agility Table replaces the D6 Agility Table:
AG 6: 2+, AG 5: 3+, AG 4: 4+, AG 3: 5+, AG 2: 6+, AG 1: 7+
modifiers are the same (+1 to Dodge roll, +1 to Pick Up roll etc.)

1 before modification: automatic failure
8 before modification: automatic success

So, an AG 4 dodge into a square with 0 tackle zone would require a 3+, with 1 TZ 4+, with 2 TZ 5+, with 3 TZ 6+, with 4 TZ 7+, with 5 or more TZ 8.

Nelphine wrote:

Elves/gutters already dodge away from someone too often on a 2+ - that causes far more problems than them trying to dodge into a tackle zone.

I agree. With D8 system the AG 4 dodge into a square with 0 Tackle zone changes the % from 83.33 to 75%.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 14:19 Reply with quote Back to top

To facilitate discussion, it would be nice to see both existing and new proposals in a comparable grid format
BlockBadger



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 14:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Why are we talking about nerfing Ag teams when passing is dead and Tomb Kings are the present meta?

Getting Ag 1+ takes 18 SPP min and then its only 3/16! That’s horrid odds!
You could get two normal skills for 18SPP, without the need for a dice roll.

I can see a lot of good reasons to go more granular, and as you say passing needs fixing. But changing game engines is one hell of a task and takes months of play testing, d8s are harder to get ahold of and worse to roll, and I’m sure though play-testing other issues will come to light.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Take TACKLE and cut down Elves and Skaven like Wheat. Hunt down and FOUL TO DEATH anything with AG5 or 6 (except for my players that is I quite like those guys).

But seriously... that is what you MUST DO. Take Tackle. Knock them on their ass and STOMP THEM TO DEATH!!!
You say they are BROKEN. So MAKE THEM BROKEN!!!

It isn't exactly EASY to get AG5 players and it is twice as hard to get AG6 players.
But can you honestly say the ELVES wouldn't sometimes be that AGILE?
NO. You can't. Their ELITE Athletes would be that Agile.

And you Orcs, Chaos, Goblins, Humans, etc etc etc would HATES THEM SO MUCH!!! So you must HUNT THEM DOWN by using the best Elf Killer skills in the game. TACKLE which way too many coaches NEVER take and DIRTY PLAYER with every assist you can get. Send those beautiful bastards to meet Illuvitar and live on in Elysium,

Abd FFS... a Natural 1 is 17% of results on a Dodge. With Tackle they cannot use the SKILL to Reroll that. Instead they FALL DOWN inside your Cage or Screen where you have all of the Assists you need to kill that thing.

The strategy is right in front of you like a Prone Elf in your Cage. And your DP should be right next to the BALL in the 1st place WAITING for some Dumb Elf to fall down right next to him.

On a d8 a Natural 1 is only rolled 12.5% of the time.
Do you REALLY think you can afford to give that Elf 4.5% better chance of success?
Do you really think the game mechanics should have that Elf fail on a 1 and a 2 to give you Clumsier Elves that FAIL 25% of the time?
Meanwhile, YOU give the Elf a FREE REPOLL every time he Dodges because YOU won't take any damn TACKLE under the current game mechanics.

TACKLE and BOOT TO THE FACE.
Or maybe a little GRAB to pull that Elf into your cage. Then knock him down with TACKLE and BOOT TO THE FACE.



neuro_ wrote:
https://dice.clockworkmod.com/ for dice stats.
If we were to use D8s rather than D6s for the purpose of passing and dodging (also applicable for a new D8 Block Die):

-WITHOUT RR-
2+ goes from 83/17 to 87/13 pass/fail %
3+ from 67/33 to 75/25
4+ from 50/50 to 62/38
5+ from 33/67 to 50/50
rest are mirrored^

-WITH RR-
2+ drops from 97/3 to 98/2 pass/fail %
3+ drops from 89/11 to 94/6
4+ goes from 75/25 to 86/14
5+ falls from 56/44 to 75/25
6+ from 31/69 to 61/39
check out the rest yourself Cool

SO:
I think that the main problem lies in the modifiers for Dodging. How many times has an Elf or skaven casually 3+ed its way past you?! I suggest these new dice, but with a -2 per target TZ rather than -1. Alternatively, a flat -1 if dodging into any zones as well as the current modifiers. These proposed changes make safe dodges safer and risky dodges riskier.

Passing:
Everyone knows, to put it nicely, that passing is shite. These changes make it a LOT better, and thanks to only passing players having PA 2+, not too powerful and/or meta-defining (I think). Also, Interception and Interference is still a thing.

Any criticisms, suggestions and/or devils' advocate points are welcome! Razz
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic