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Poll
Do you agree with most of the points indicated in this thread?
yes
5%
 5%  [ 9 ]
No
65%
 65%  [ 100 ]
I don't care: i will play BB whatever be the rules
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
I will abandon BB2020 in any case
3%
 3%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 153


ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 11:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with Catalyst... I have been playing since the 1980s and its a comedic spoof on American Football and Fantasy. Its supposed to be funny. Its supposed to be crazy.

I am also a D&D player and am a massive fan of d20 systems. I think if you adopt more dice variation, you have more flexibility... and a d20 system would work but I wouldnt be making just a 1 in 20 the fail mark for any action.

Other than that, I pretty much disagree with all of the OP's post
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 12:11 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
the big point for me is the 6 faced dices which is too low.
Players with AG5 dodge 2+ indipendently if there is no or 1 tackle zone to dodge to. Several other exmples can be done.
This in my opinion is a limitation of the game. Introducing the 8-face dice in spite of the 6 face dice should be very easy. Someone can explain me why should be wrong replace the 6 face dice ith 8 face dice? I miss for sure some important reasons



And Legolas was incredibly agile and etc etc It is FANTASY.

And if you want to STOP AG5 players from Dodging every where take some TACKLE. Use it to take away their built in Rerolls and use it to knock them on their backside, Then use some Hob-Nailed Boots and lots of assists to CRUSH their SPINE so they can never walk again.

May as well complain that some Characters have ST5 and they can easily get 3 DICE Blocks against your Halflings and kill and eat them.

These events are NOT SLOT MACHINE EVENTS. The represent the RANDOMNESS of LIFE. Sometimes it RAINS hard. Sometimes your opponent has a great strategy against you based on their Scouting of what you do (Perfect Defense or Blitz!). Sometimes there is a Streaker or a Riot (Pitch Invasion). Sometimes there are Trolls and Elves and beings born of Evil and Chaos.

You don't understand the game. Try having an imagination and some FUN.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 12:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
argos_72 wrote:
the big point for me is the 6 faced dices which is too low.
Players with AG5 dodge 2+ indipendently if there is no or 1 tackle zone to dodge to. Several other exmples can be done.
This in my opinion is a limitation of the game. Introducing the 8-face dice in spite of the 6 face dice should be very easy. Someone can explain me why should be wrong replace the 6 face dice ith 8 face dice? I miss for sure some important reasons



And Legolas was incredibly agile and etc etc It is FANTASY.

And if you want to STOP AG5 players from Dodging every where take some TACKLE. Use it to take away their built in Rerolls and use it to knock them on their backside, Then use some Hob-Nailed Boots and lots of assists to CRUSH their SPINE so they can never walk again.

May as well complain that some Characters have ST5 and they can easily get 3 DICE Blocks against your Halflings and kill and eat them.

These events are NOT SLOT MACHINE EVENTS. The represent the RANDOMNESS of LIFE. Sometimes it RAINS hard. Sometimes your opponent has a great strategy against you based on their Scouting of what you do (Perfect Defense or Blitz!). Sometimes there is a Streaker or a Riot (Pitch Invasion). Sometimes there are Trolls and Elves and beings born of Evil and Chaos.

You don't understand the game. Try having an imagination and some FUN.


so for you is normal that a pòayer with AG5 can do actioons with one or zero tackle zone with the same dice roll?
If the client tell "success with 7+" why should be success if you roll 6?

it is the game itself that foreseen some event which need 7+
for me make no sense that if the action require you roll 7+ and youi roll 6 this is a success
It is evdent this show a poor design effort.
8 face dices is already contained in BB box so it is not something so complicated to implement
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 14:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Not just no but HELLS NO. You do not understand the game.

|It is based on AMERICAN FOOTBALL. And an American FOOTBALL can ABSOLUTELY be KICKED OFF and when it hits the ground it can ABSOLUTELY bounce BACKWARDS by 1d6 due to the shape and nature of the ball. It can also be pushed by a gust of WIND backwards in the air.
The whole point is that the Ball does not just go to exactly where you want it to go for multiple reasons.


it is american football a widely inaccurate pass? Or the crowd launch the ball maybe three time and it is returned back maybe by 12 squares.
This is NOT american football neither fantasy football. This is CRAZY football



Catalyst32 wrote:


It is FANTASY FOOTBALL. The results account for FANTASY and for (AMERICAN) FOOTBALL and random elements that could occur during the game.
Plus the Crazy GONZO Randomness is for FUN!!!
Go play CHESS with these DULL and BORING ideas,


This is CRAZY football NOT FATNASY football and till i will pay to purchase the game, the rulebook and donate money to this site I can propose whatever idea I want. I play chess. And I play bloodnowl both.
The world is not BLACK (CRAZY football) or WHITE (CHESS)
People do not have only two options in the life: play and shut up , or go away. Ok??
Maybe for you is like this, I like to see the smooth differences.

Catalyst32 wrote:

Go take a Math Class. Or something and have YOUR fun doing equations or something.


I thhink to know statistics because I have studied.
I think you should maybe look better the differences betwen LRB3.0, LRB4.0 LRB5.0 LRB 6.0 and BB2020
I have some doubts you have read these documents. If so many amendments has been done in the past there were some reasons

Catalyst32 wrote:

Go play Chess where when Queen takes Pawn she always Wins and when Pawn takes whoever he always Wins.


I repeat: world is not black and white.
BlockBadger



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 14:17 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:


To quote Graeme Taylor "Do I not like that!"

If passing is broken, then fix that. Don't change the entire structure of the game so you potentially have 2 risk free passing turns.

The whole thing seems to really be "I don't like stalling" make it really really hard for Slow teams to score, let alone stall


Feels like your missing what BB54 is trying to do, it’s taking a look at bb with modern game design principles, and making an entire new way to play the game. He explains it a lot better himself. Go read it and give him some feedback, and yes he is taking into account Dorfs and Tomb Kings, one reason the weather needed to go.

Bash is presently meta in 2020 for wins with the slowest teams at the top, which by 2016 standards is not a good place for balance. Bash should be 40-50% win rate, based on present consensus.

ATM a slow bash team often only get one shot to score, but with quarters you would get two shots and can’t be 0-3 down to a fast team by half time. So bash can really gain from it as well (for instance focus on bash and defence for the first three quarters and then score in the final quarter, something which only happens now if you totally dominate and force a quick TD, something show teams are bad at).

Passing will never be good in core BB but it does not need to be, it’s a desperate measure when you failed to manage your turns well, or to farm SPP on your own backfield. I’d love them to fix very inaccurate as it’s not fun and feels like clown logic, but even it’s total removal would not change the need for a 2-1 or 1-0 grind.

We are going to see a lot of people try and find ways to remove the dead turns from bb, while making one turns less mandatory for game plans, and I’m personally really happy to see new ways to play the game, now official 7s, maybe dungeon bowl tomorrow? I don’t like DB in concept, but I think it’s cool people playing the game they way they want to mix things up.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 14:38 Reply with quote Back to top

The game uses a d6 vase because if you lose you dice you can get them out of the Candyland or Monopoly box in the Closet and keep playing. You can't just go grab a d8 or a d20 anywhere.

Plus the game uses 1d6, 1d8, 2d6 and sometimes 3d6.
The game further varies the use of those dice by determining WHO CHOOSES THE RESULT of those dice. Does the player who WANTS the 6 get to chose or does the player who WANTS the 1 get to choose? The game them has SKILLS that allow Rerolls of those dice and other game mechanics that can Reroll the dice. And after all that a WIZARD can intervene and reroll the dice.
The game already uses the same set of dice in numerous ways/
How many times DO YOU WANT to have to look up the Rules while Playing to find out which dice to roll?
How many times do you want to argue with your opponent about which dice to roll per game?

The use of the d6 is for SIMPLICITY SAKE so you don't have to memorize the game Mechanics along with everything else. This game has been a success of varying degrees for about 49 DECADES NOW using the same basic Game Mechanics it has since the beginning. (With some changes and I have been playing since 2nd Edition.)
It AIN'T broken. You unneeded fix is not an improvement. Your kid Brother needs to be able to understand the game basics too. Your friend that isn't so great at Math needs to be able QUICKLY calculate his odds of success of each action in his turn too.

So again, You don't understand the game.
It is inherent in your thought that this is bad game design,

You tell me... You must make a 1 Dice Block.
1 = SKULL and Turnover 2 = BOTH DOWN and Turnover (with no skills), 3 and 5 = PUSH. 5 = PUSH/POW and 6 = POW.
So... before you even add the complexity of the Block Skill and the Dodge Skill or Rerolls. Before you add the complexity of 2 Dice and 3 Dice Blocks. Before you add the complexity of who chooses what dice to use. And before you have to make MULTIPLE Blocks on every turn.

HOW is a 1d8 block better in any way?
What do you ADD to the game with an additional 2 Results that improves the game.
2 more PUSH results? Am extra POW benefitting BASH? And extra SKULL NERFing Blocking?
How does you change improve AMYTHING?

The fact is it DOESN'T IMPROVE ANYTHING. It just changes everything.
It changes the MATHS for every roll in the game.
It BUFFS some of the rolls and it NERFS other rolls.
And in the end it is just as GOOD and just as BAD of a game design as there is NOW.

The fact is... if the weather and the Kickoff Results are so catastrophic to you the reason is YOU are just a BAD COACH.
Because a GOOD COACH sets up his DEFENSE to take Advantage of the potential Results.
A GOOD COACH sets up his OFFENSE to LIMIT the DAMAGE of the potential Results.
YOU know the Results are possible.
YOU must ADJUST to the possibility.
GOOD COACHES figure that out on their own.
BAD COACHES whine about the possibilities and which Dice are used.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 15:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Duplicate Post


Last edited by Catalyst32 on Mar 07, 2021 - 15:45; edited 1 time in total
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 15:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah. If thrown by an Orc Blocker or a Skaven Lineman an American Football will be thrown inaccurately.

Only 1 guy on a REAL team Throws the Ball, And he sometimes drops the ball UNTOUCHED or touched by Opponents and he sometimes misses his target by alot because sometimes he expects his Catcher to turn right but he turns left.

You would know that is you understood REAL Football or FANNTASY.

The CROWD does not throw the Football back AT ALL in REAL Football. That is the FANTASY aspect of this game that you flat out DO NOT COMPREHEND.

I also play CHESS when I want to play a STRATEGY GAME. I was on my school CHESS TEAM. They don't have DICE in STRATEGY GAMES.

The thing is YOU WANT Blood Bowl to be something it CANNOT BE. And you CANNOT go purchase that game you think you want because NOHBODY WANTED IT. That game you want FAILED to be created because it is a bad idea. And Blood Bowl has been around for 4+ DECADES because it KNOWS what it is... and it IS what it is.

Blood Bowl is a success BECAUSE it is NOT what you want it to become. That game you want ALREADY EXSTS as Chess and Checkers and GO and Chinese Checkers and Risk and Connect Four and Stratego and WARHAMMER etc etc.
Blood Bowl exists BECAUSE of it's HUMOUR which comes from it's RANDOM EVENTS and BECAUSE of the way it is nothing else.

As for the various EDITIONS. I have been playing this game sine 2ND EDITION. I have played EVERY RULESET except 2020 because I have been too busy.
I am also a PROFESSIONAL REFEREE and UMPIRE and work 4 different major Sports and if only I had the time I could work 6 different sports... but there is only so much time.
Every Sport has a Rules Committee and many of them change the RULES in their sport EVERY YEAR by a little bit. Many of them have totally different Rules Books in the same Sport.
It is NOT unusual to TWEAK THE RULES in Games or Sports as the years go by. It is the NORM to do so. It was probably common in CHESS and CHECKERS to change the rules around a bit back when those games were being developed. Thee games did not spring forth fully formed from some Man or some Groups Mind.

It is KNOWN as the LIVING RULEBOOK for BLOOD BOWL for a REASON. Because it lives. Because WE many of us who have been here since nearly the beginning ARE the game. We have LIVED IT and PLAYED IT and added to it over 4+ Decades.

And the game mechanic STAYS THE SAME for what I have told you. And the game remains within it's NICHE Market BECAUSE of what I have told you.
You refuse to accept that because you do not understand what the game IS.

It IS something. And it IS not something else. It endures because of what it IS. Accept it for what it IS.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Yeah. If thrown by an Orc Blocker or a Skaven Lineman an American Football will be thrown inaccurately.



is it possible in american footbal that a player throw the ball IN FRONT of him and by mistake throw the ball 6 square BEHIND him? Oh yes it is possible if this player become crazy. Fumble is possible even if happening with a natural 1 meand 16% of the time. Is not so unfrequent
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 16:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:


As for the various EDITIONS. I have been playing this game sine 2ND EDITION. I have played EVERY RULESET except 2020 because I have been too busy.
I am also a PROFESSIONAL REFEREE and UMPIRE and work 4 different major Sports and if only I had the time I could work 6 different sports... but there is only so much time.
Every Sport has a Rules Committee and many of them change the RULES in their sport EVERY YEAR by a little bit. Many of them have totally different Rules Books in the same Sport.
It is NOT unusual


exactly because you follow this game since 20 years you knwo that several amendment to the ruleset has been done in the past. 20 years ago the referee inblood bowl spot the foul only if double is rolled in the armour roll. Not on the injury roll. This has been changed. Now in BB2020 several other things will be changed.
I never see a game with som many changes in 20 years. This is a demonstration that EVEN the poor designers of this crazy game recognize that they did a lot of mess.
Introducing chaos for free for fun is not a sport. Is a slot machine. is russian roulette.
I am just asking to make the game LITTLE BIT less crazy . that's all.
I am not asking to abolish randomicity or whatever

Apothecary must be not random.
piutch invasion perfect defence change meteo every drive is not fun is just chaos. nothing to do with player's ability
have the ball scattering 6 or 12 square in the OPPOSITE direction applied to a force is not only an abomination in the world of Newton's rule, but even the Lord of The Ring will laugh about such stupid event.

I play chess and I play Blood bowl. I play several table top games. I have never ever see a game with so many rules amendments like blood bowl in 25 years

reason is simple: the rule has been designed for fun. without any big mathematic reasoning behind. that's my point of view of course .
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 16:37 Reply with quote Back to top

@BlockBadger

I was perhaps being a bit 'dramatic' but that BB54 article is entirely based on 'Stalling is most complained about bit of BloodBowl' and needs removing. I just don't agree which admittedly is acknowledged.

Basketball isn't better than football because the teams score more often. Football wouldn't be better with bigger goals so the scores are higher. It more complicated than that.

We don't know enough as to how 2020 will affect the meta so to suggest bash teams will be too good feels premature.

The fact that the article itself (or at least many of the comments) suggest redesign rosters like Khemri is the answer to make BB54 work rings massive alarm bells.

The fact the article has as one of the benefits:

"Greater team development diversity
Teams have to score quicker – increase in passing / scoring skills (Sure Feet, Catch etc)
Both teams have to defend – increase in defensive / turnover skills (Diving Tackle, Side Step, Stand Firm)"

The side that would most need them have little to no access to most of those skills as normals. So not only do someone like Nurgle have to rush to score more than they'd like, they also potentially have to give up load of traditional skills to make it viable.
Sharkrudi



Joined: Dec 19, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 17:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Tu avais raison Argos, il y a vraiment du monde d'accord avec toi Laughing

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 19:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Sharkrudi wrote:
Tu avais raison Argos, il y a vraiment du monde d'accord avec toi Laughing


Let me translate for non french-speaking people, as Sharkrudi still thinks that the world is the French Napoleon Empire Razz

Monsieur Sharkrudi has written

"You are right Argos: There is really a lot of people who agree with you : ah ah ah "

At the moment majority seems against my proposal, but I am patient. I think there are more people who agrees that a certain degree of change in this game is necessary but simply did not read still this post.

I explain again the aim of this poll: I am not saying everybody must agree on ALL my points. The question is if people thinks that will be more fair to have a more balanced game where coach's ability is prized more than the dices results.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 19:25 Reply with quote Back to top

right, and that point i agree with. but, (ignoring wildly inaccurate which i think is terrible and will be changed soon) I think bb2020 has done a far better job of reducing the randomness and allowing coach skill to do that, than any of the suggestions you have made.

However, please note, I also think my suggestion on pricing changes are far better than what bb2020 did - except I can't make estimates on pricing given that the bb2020 changes throw everything on their head.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post 14 Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 20:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
right, and that point i agree with. but, (ignoring wildly inaccurate which i think is terrible and will be changed soon).


yes i totally agree with you
so you are one of the three people who voted yes Smile
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