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Poll
Do you agree with most of the points indicated in this thread?
yes
5%
 5%  [ 9 ]
No
65%
 65%  [ 101 ]
I don't care: i will play BB whatever be the rules
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
I will abandon BB2020 in any case
3%
 3%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 154


argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 17:23 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:
argos_72,
Blood Bowl is a crazy game with cartoony hijinks set in a fantasy world that enables every underdog to sometimes have his day.

To answer your question [...] Pitch Invasion [...] its comical


Here I agree with you: this game is comical
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 17:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Remembering to roll a 3+ or 4+ doesn't require keen strategy and careful calculations at all.
It has the same difficulty level of many other things to remember in the game.
The Dug Out could be re-designed, with the KO split in 3, if using the different positions of miniatures to remind the roll is tricky.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 19:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I went through a phase of hating Pitch Invasion, but that coincided with suffering from it several times in a row. Likewise, I used to hate Wrestle (because I suffered a lot against coaches who had it, and I didn't know how to mitigate against it). So some of these criticisms might be inferred as coming because you've had negative experiences.

Throw a Rock! has been totally nerfed for 2020, and Blitz! is much less vicious than it used to be (I've had a Skaven coach blitz me three times in a row on tabletop, which ain't fun when you're playing Halflings with five players out already...)

But I think each event is good from a balancing perspective: it's very annoying when your +ST / Block / Dodge / Tackle / Claw mino gets killed before the first turn of the match, but it was probably going to be just as annoying for your opponent to have to face it for 16 turns. Isn't it good coaching to avoid having all your eggs in one basket, in case they get cracked? I'll miss the rock, although an angry ref is just as good, on balance.

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stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 20:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I hate the "don't put all your eggs in one basket" phrase. I mean, who goes to the shops and splits a pack of eggs over multiple baskets? What if all you want is eggs? Do you pick up 2 baskets and put a few eggs in each looking like a looney?
JohnDaker



Joined: Aug 01, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 20:43 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
I am thinking that with BB2020 there is still space of improvement to make this game little bit less randomic and make the coach's ability factor more important for the final score.


The biggest problem is that your postulate for why changes are needed is completely false.

The best coaches are already winning a lot more often.

(unless it is yet another version of the "RNG is broken" thread where you are complaining that you should win more often if it wasn't due to bad luck Wink )
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 21:00 Reply with quote Back to top

JohnDaker wrote:
argos_72 wrote:
I am thinking that with BB2020 there is still space of improvement to make this game little bit less randomic and make the coach's ability factor more important for the final score.


The biggest problem is that your postulate for why changes are needed is completely false.

The best coaches are already winning a lot more often.

(unless it is yet another version of the "RNG is broken" thread where you are complaining that you should win more often if it wasn't due to bad luck Wink )


This is how I feel. Good coaches already win more often. I see no need to change the game so that the better coach wins every time.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 23:40 Reply with quote Back to top

JohnDaker wrote:
argos_72 wrote:
I am thinking that with BB2020 there is still space of improvement to make this game little bit less randomic and make the coach's ability factor more important for the final score.


The biggest problem is that your postulate for why changes are needed is completely false.

The best coaches are already winning a lot more often.

(unless it is yet another version of the "RNG is broken" thread where you are complaining that you should win more often if it wasn't due to bad luck Wink )


RNG is quite good
I just say that 6 face dice is too small for this game.
I would replace for some actions where is required to roll 7+ a 8D dice. I do not think this is changing the game so dramatic.
But I can understand that evrybody like to dream that a long bomb with a player of AG3 inside 5 tackle zone where normally it willr equire 8+ to succeed in any case rolling 6 is "win".

There is a very nice tool to calculare probability at this game http://www.elyoukey.com/sac/
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2021 - 23:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
JohnDaker wrote:
argos_72 wrote:
I am thinking that with BB2020 there is still space of improvement to make this game little bit less randomic and make the coach's ability factor more important for the final score.


The biggest problem is that your postulate for why changes are needed is completely false.

The best coaches are already winning a lot more often.

(unless it is yet another version of the "RNG is broken" thread where you are complaining that you should win more often if it wasn't due to bad luck Wink )


This is how I feel. Good coaches already win more often. I see no need to change the game so that the better coach wins every time.


I am not sure that Legend coach like to have a 65%- 69% win rate in the Box division division where 80% of players are not at this high level.

I like to watch several matches played by Legend players and when they draw or lose vs emerging star / veteran/ or star i noticed that every time happen something catastrophic. They are so good that some time they can get a "draw" and not to lose. But is wasting time. In the average "good player" have a 51% win rate factor playing BloodBowl. Exceptional player no more than 70% win rate. all other player place themself in the range of 30% - 45%. This is not normal.
exceptional player should have 85% win ratein a division where 80% of players are at low level
good player 50-60% and average-low player 10-20%
At least till the Box division will include players of all levels (from rookie to legend): i have proposed to have a Box division A and Box division B to make games more balanced but I understand the number of coach in this site is not sufficient to grant sufficient number of match every 15 minutes for this so this proposal is not realistic.)
XpherAndTheAxes



Joined: Jun 20, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 00:01 Reply with quote Back to top

But why separate competitive? I feel like this is the 1000th thread you have mentioned it in or made about it, and i still dont get the logic behind it.
JohnDaker



Joined: Aug 01, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 00:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, so you are saying the best coaches should have winning % in the 80s instead of the 70s.
Should have said that from the beginning.

Are any of these coaches complaining they are not winning enough?

Still think you are fighting windmills.
lemf



Joined: Jul 17, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 01:29 Reply with quote Back to top

If you put hens in separate baskets then you could end up with not having all your eggs in one basket and not look like a looney Idea
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 01:54 Reply with quote Back to top

lemf wrote:
If you put hens in separate baskets then you could end up with not having all your eggs in one basket and not look like a looney Idea


You've let the cat out of the bag there.

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LordHugo



Joined: Mar 24, 2017

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 02:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I voted no, but still want to congratulate you for identifying particular aspects and elaborating on them, in order to make this great game even better. Good luck next time!
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 02:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I thought about this some more, and since Blood Bowl is sometimes compared to a combination of chess and backgammon, it might be instructive to look at the winning rates of a top player in each of these.

For backgammon, this suggests in backgammon, a more skilled player will win about 75% of the time over an unskilled player. I'm assuming in chess if you're more skilled you'll probably going to flatten the weaker player almost every time (I don't play games unless there's dice involved, so what would I know?); but backgammon probably has less variance than Blood Bowl (backgammon counters don't have Wild Animal or an AV stat) so I'd guess that the backgammon expected win rate would be an upper limit on the Blood Bowl one.

And in that case, the best coaches on Fummbl are right where they should be.

One more bit of petrol on the barbecue...

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 06:07 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
Footballs SLIP OUT OF THE HAND and go backwards all the time.


for up to 1D6??? cam'on even in the wonderwand country is crazy
you PASS the ball you do widely inaccurate and you LAUNCH the ball behind you by 6 squares? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Ok if we like Stan Laurel & Oliver Hardy's movies yes.
It is NOT necessary to add HUGE randomicity for crazy event. really not. I think the game will not lose anything of his fun if we ban totally crazy events



YES!!! I have already told you so.
They play American Football in ALL WEATHER which can include Hurricane Force Winds and Flash Flooding and SNOW.
Only Lightning and a Tornado or Hurricane about to hit the Stadium cancels or delays games.
This isn't any SISSY KICK Euro-game for Girly-men where they Fall down and Grab their ankle for no reason to win.
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