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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't see why chancing a random skill on a lineman for a mere extra 10k is an issue at all... that is really a low risk as you are likely ending up with a useful skill in some way rather than not. I think this is more of a personal preference about what one consider fun and not an actual problem.

This is also why randomising MVP is important... it is part of the whole idea that SPP should be spread around a bit more.

I currently play with a Nobility team as well and gave him accurate to make those quick passes and that has worked out well, he now gain SPP in a steady rate every game and will soon get his third skill and is a good asset to the team.
Sure... Nobility throwers are not directly great throwers but at least they have a thrower and can make a decent quick and short pass game. As they also have two Blitzers with Catch they can move the ball quite fast when they need to.

Even Chaos can roll quite a bit of random skills especially mutations. Once you have a few Beastmen with Block and/or Wrestle you can certainly afford some random skills. In the second season you should also be able to keep a few good players for next season with the skills you feel that you need.

Random skills is more about opportunity than anything else... you might be better of with a random skill than no skill at all. Sure you can get a low value skill if you are unlucky but then you just cut that player and don't rehire them for the next season... they can go safely on the LOS etc... no big deal.

My experience so far in our league is that random skills give quite interesting results even if some are bad skills. Overall they produce interesting variation on the teams.

You can also house rule stuff in local leagues as well, such as you may pick a particular skill during a random roll a player can't get to weed out the worst most boring results to make random a bit more fun.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 16:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, I understand that taking random skills can be fun for casual coaches playing in not competitive leagues, but that could have been made without BB2020 rules. Just randomize the skill with dice by yourself.

Consider this scenario, TVMM:

2 DE teams. Same rosters, same CR coaches. One coach decides to take a random skill on a linelf, turns out it's Shadowing. The other coach doesn't take the random skill.
Now it's TV 1010 roster vs 1000 TV roster. The coach with TV 1000 will be considered underdog and will gain more CR/lose less CR.
In the ruthless world of TV-efficiency you are considered underdog by the CR formula even by a mere 10 TV.
This is why I don't want to randomize and keep skills not efficient for their TV.
I will randomize skills on linemen only if I can cycle them in case the random skill is not efficient.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 16:28 Reply with quote Back to top

First of you can't do much with a 10k Underdog cash... you need at least 50k for a roll on the table. You just focus on the bad and don't see the good... if that player got Block instead of Shadow you are up a really good skill for a mere 10k and you get the skill before the other team (opportunity) and when they choose block YOU are suddenly up 10k... so I don't see the point in this argument.

It also is way low to say that you need to play casually or competitively... don't see the issue at all here and this is close to being an argument from authority fallacy in play.

I generally play with a few handicaps in my league as I have way more experience than most but that does not mean we don't play competitively... I would say the reverse... most in my league are quite competitive for example.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 16:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Chances are that you will get a bad skill, while a single Block on a Linelf will not improve meaningfully the team's performance.
The random G skills I'd keep on a DE lino are 4 on 12, so only 33% of getting something really useful, namely:
Block, Kick, Pro, Wrestle.

I know that I don't buy anything with 10 TV difference, but I'm happy playing as 10 TV underdog, to increase my CR gain/decrease CR loss.

If you and your friends played here in the Box I could have an accurate idea, but you don't play here and what you say about your TT league suggests a casual mindset.
It's not an offence, everybody is free to play as he fancies.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 16, 2021 - 17:01; edited 1 time in total
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 16:59
FUMBBL Staff
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IMO the only thing that really needs changing is the Wildly Inaccurate Pass rules. That punishes even the good throwers for daring anything longer than a quick pass. Whatever the rule was meant for, it missed the mark. Maybe the passing process in general needs to be simplified.

Other than that I think the game is fine, the other changes are mostly subjective/preference. I miss the stat rolls a bit, but I'll get used to it. Some of the rosters could use a do-over, but that's easily fixable through Spikes.

_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude

Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Many do like to play with linemen, fun teams and not just with tier1 minmaxing in TV matchmaking. TV Matchmaking also is not that good way to play bloodbowl anyway as we all know.

I myself like that teams dont just build one legend and rest trash. Random skills are awesome and makes you actually play the game in more than one way. That alone brings a lot of diversity between rosters.

I just hope that when box comes back it does take number of games/redrafts more into pairing of games and not just TV. Nobody wants to play 10 game teams against 100 game teams, never had never will.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 17:08 Reply with quote Back to top

One legend rest trash is just a consequence of the old ruleset, like Cpomb etc.
I'd like that everybody had to take random skills (2 randoms skills, even from different Categories, pick 1 of them) but, if I randomize skills and I face a coach who doesn't do it, I'm at a disadvantage.
Being at a disadvantage is not logical if you play in Competitive division.
It's not Random skill Casual division. It's called Competitive division so competitive team building is the path to follow.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 17:24 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Well, I understand that taking random skills can be fun for casual coaches

blah blah blah

The coach with TV 1000 will be considered underdog and will gain more CR/lose less CR.


You articulate the least compelling reasons to play Blood Bowl. How about you compete to win games, instead of win CR? Are you a bureaucrat of some sort? Your idea of what is "competitive" is stupid.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 17:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Then even CR, who is gained by competing, is stupid?
Christer took some time to develop it (and he even bothered to recalculate it some time ago), I would not dismiss CR and its formula as a stupid idea, otherwise Christer would have not invested time on it, I guess.
CR is objective, not my personal subjective opinion.
There is correlation between winning games and gaining CR.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Chances are that you will get a bad skill, while a single Block on a Linelf will not improve meaningfully the team's performance.
The random G skills I'd keep on a DE lino are 4 on 12, so only 33% of getting something really useful, namely:
Block, Kick, Pro, Wrestle.

I know that I don't buy anything with 10 TV difference, but I'm happy playing as 10 TV underdog, to increase my CR gain/decrease CR loss.

If you and your friends played here in the Box I could have an accurate idea, but you don't play here and what you say about your TT league suggests a casual mindset.
It's not an offence, everybody is free to play as he fancies.


Well... the problem is that the game is created with "normal" table-top in mind so CR is quite inconsequential. CR ratings have no baring on whether the game or rules as written is any good or if you are competitive when you play or not.

All your argument seem to me stem mostly from "argument of authority" which is a fallacy.

It is OK to have a personal opinion what you like and what you don't like. I would certainly rate a fair amount of general skills to be worth 10k more than the four you mentioned, easily. If you happen to roll any of the four skills you are just ahead... there are very few general skills I would not gladly pay 10k for on a lineman.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Then even CR, who is gained by competing, is stupid?
Christer took some time to develop it (and he even bothered to recalculate it some time ago), I would not dismiss CR and its formula as a stupid idea, otherwise Christer would have not invested time on it, I guess.
CR is objective, not my personal subjective opinion.
There is correlation between winning games and gaining CR.


Game designers have to deal with people trying to break their designs. I highly doubt that Christer designed CR with the intention that people would seek out games with 10 TV differences to gain CR advantages. Your practices are a parasitic attempt to break the design, not be competitive.

In the meta, if it was a significant portion of the community playing like you, I bet Christer would take a long look at changing the design. As it stands right now you are a minority, and changing a design over a pissant is not warranted.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 17:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
Well, I understand that taking random skills can be fun for casual coaches

blah blah blah

The coach with TV 1000 will be considered underdog and will gain more CR/lose less CR.


You articulate the least compelling reasons to play Blood Bowl. How about you compete to win games, instead of win CR? Are you a bureaucrat of some sort? Your idea of what is "competitive" is stupid.


Blood Bowl designers did not create the game so that people can increase CR on Fumbbl or any other platform. If you chase CR on Fumbbl you are playing your own meta game with yourself in your head.

To me CR tells me 2 things. Legends and Super Stars are experienced and will give me a challenging and difficult game every time.

Rookies and Emerging Stars are either newer at the game or they play using less competitive teams regularly.
Sir_Sully



Joined: May 08, 2019

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 18:21 Reply with quote Back to top

And if you keep cycling linemen you might get to the end of the season and lose skilled positional because you can’t afford to redraft them. Suffering through a few games with a slightly bloated tv may be the lesser of 2 evils.

I feel the rules have been written in such a manner to discourage cycling players. At some point cycling all your linemen with injuries / bad skills will cost you a star come season end.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 18:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I cycled my players (Linemen, Thrower and Goblins) and my team after 15 games looks fine:

https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=1042628

max Season Redraft budget achieved (1350k).

my strategy has been:

- random skill on Linemen (only if I can afford to replace them immediately in case of bad skill);
I had 12 SPPs on a Lineman who picked Guard, then realized it was too expensive (40 TV) so I cycled him;
- Thrower: tried him by picking (not randomizing) On The Ball and Cannoneer skills, then fired him due to TV/performance inefficiency;
- random Secondary skill on Goblin at first level up, if it's not either Sure Hands or Block, I fire him (40k is easy to cycle).
- on Blitzers: 2 picked S skills, Guard and MB;
- on Big Uns: 1 picked G skill, Block, 1 picked S skill, Guard.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 16, 2021 - 18:53; edited 1 time in total
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

To be honest Blood Bowl was NEVER designed to play in any shape and form in TV matched environment. This way of playing is nice for pick up games and learn how to play the game and just generally have fun playing Blood Bowl in an easily accessible manner.

The issue is that it warps the balance of the rules, teams and general environment of the game. The only way to judge the rule as written is through proper league play with relatively limited number of games per season. Anything else simply will not produce the balance the game is originally written for.

This is the reason why I think the new rule-set are quite interesting and the seasonal play and rehiring pf payers makes a pretty well balanced game overall. The teams in the game are not supposed to be perfectly balanced either so I don't think there is much argument to complain some teams might struggle more than others. You should pick a team you like to play and make the best of the situation, there is nothing wrong with playing with a small handicap and struggle a bit. The fun bit should be playing the game... even if you play to win.
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