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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top


Secret League 2020 is now (Fully) Live!!!!

The next [SL]2020 Old World Rookie Rumble will ALWAYs be recruiting. Kick off when we have 16 teams. Sign up here!

[SL]2020 Brawls are also recruiting for teams <= 1000, 1001<=1300, 1301<=1600 & 1601<=2000 TV
Kick off when there are eight ( 8 ) teams in a bracket.
Sign up here!

Create a team and let's get going!!!

Seasons:
The proposed seasons parameters for [SL]2020 are:
Games 15, Base 1000k, per game 20k, W/T/L 20/15/10k, Cap 1600k, fees 20k/season

Post your comments on here or on discord.

Good luck and have fun!

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Star Only Roster - Testing


Last edited by koadah on Jan 24, 2023 - 18:11; edited 6 times in total
KidCrestHill



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 07, 2021 - 04:11 Reply with quote Back to top

WOOT Cya on the Pitch
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top


The next [SL]2020 Old World Rookie Rumble will always be recruiting. Kick off when we have 16 teams.

New teams only!

Sign up here!


We're also looking for a few more teams 1300 TV or under for a [SL]2020 Brawl
Sign up here!

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Star Only Roster - Testing
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2023 - 18:12 Reply with quote Back to top


Secret League 2020 is now (Fully) Live!!!!

The next [SL]2020 Old World Rookie Rumble will ALWAYs be recruiting. Kick off when we have 16 teams. Sign up here!

[SL]2020 Brawls are also recruiting for teams <= 1000, 1001<=1300, 1301<=1600 & 1601<=2000 TV
Kick off when there are eight ( 8 ) teams in a bracket.
Sign up here!

Create a team and let's get going!!!

Seasons:
The proposed seasons parameters for [SL]2020 are:
Games 15, Base 1000k, per game 20k, W/T/L 20/15/10k, Cap 1600k, fees 20k/season

Post your comments on here or on discord.

Good luck and have fun!

Image

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Star Only Roster - Testing
Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 06:16 Reply with quote Back to top

When did the ball carriers on Daemons of Slannesh get No Hands?

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 29, 2023 - 10:46 Reply with quote Back to top

when the rule set got updated. The huuuuuuuuuuge buff to Hypnogaze made it the only reasonable option. Not ideal I know, but no other choice due to the rule change. I toyed with some other changes but all others moved them further and further away from their background.

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Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2023 - 05:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Foad wrote:
When did the ball carriers on Daemons of Slannesh get No Hands?

Garion wrote:
When the rule set got updated.

Not sure if you're trolling here or not, so I'll bite. On which specific date, pray tell did the ruleset get updated?

I guess I'm trying to understand the mandate of the change - was it for the sake of balance or fluff? Balance wise the buff was significant, but the ruleset update kills the positional. You can't skill with TDs and MB is a secondary. They're an ineffective killer as most of the blitzes will be taken by the big guy. This will leave the daemonettes looking for as many blocks as possible, and will mean that they will neither be dodging away or ball handling. The sole purpose of this high AG positional now is the Hypno Gaze, and for 110k it doesn't compare to a Vampire (642+8/732+7). It feels like the got Claw (20k) at the expense of ST4 (80k), and with 40k linos, the vamp negatrait is less harsh.

Fluff-wise, it doesn't cut it as they usually had one claw and one hand. They're also supposed to be more agile than the normal cultists.

I've looked at the groups, and can only find one match that has been played with the "No Hands" addition, and that was change happened mid-tournament. Their single D6 rolls were amazing and they were still never in the game. The 3 daemonettes threw 5 blocks between them.

There are other options here, and I'm happy to discuss off-line if you would like. But as a suggestion:

Price point - If they're broken in their past form maybe nudge the price to 140k. Or leave them as is and drop them to 80k. I'd use the Vampire base of 110k as a template and consider costings for -ST, -AV, +MA, -AniSav, + NoHnds, +Claw.

Availability - 0-4, even 0-2 might be fair.

Another positional - The team needs more than a lineman to go with the demon.

Move them numbers - Add ST to make them in line with Vamps and give them value as a blitzer, or add AV to make them vaguely buildable (or allow an apo).

Revisit the skills - AniSav fits well with the fluff. They are demons, and that skill is enough to make good coaches think long and hard about taking Mighty Blow. Maybe even drop them back to AG3+ and give them Break Tackle. That will give them a 2+ dodge, and will scale down the buff on the Hypno.

As it is, this roster is kinda dead. I'm kinda hot on this I have to admit as I've just signed up to a league and committed to an entire season of negative playing experiences. Very similar to what happened years ago when someone made roster changes to stunty league.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2023 - 06:16 Reply with quote Back to top

lets see.. going by my rules..
a standard vampire is: 6 4 2+ 3+ 9+ animal savagery hypno gaze regen
50 +80 + 40 +20 -x +60 +10 = 260 - animal savagery, which is usually 1/4, or -65
but vampires don't get priced as normal, as they are a starting roster, so we assume +30 for str, +20 for agi (drops total by 70, reduces animal savagery bonus to -50) and hypno gaze is only +40 (drops total again by 20 and reduces animal savagery bonus to -45). At this point, we have 135. half amount above 100 gives 118, round to 120, reduce by 10 = 110.

ok, so then we apply same rules to daemonettes:
+MA +AG -PA -PA -PA -AV claw regen hypno gaze no hands
50 +20 +20 -5 -5 -5 -10 +10 +10 +40 -20 = 105. half amount above 100 gives 102, round to 100, reduce by 10 = 90.

I could see the daemonettes needing to be in the 90-100 range.

I COMPLETELY agree they need another positional. linemen only teams suck for a reason, and with no hands, the daemonettes simply don't count. unfortunately i don't know the fluff well enough. Without another positional I would drop the price to 90k, and the team would completely rely on their big guy for everything. With another positional, I would drop it to 100k and make them 0-4, and then .. do whatever the other positional is.
Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2023 - 08:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
ok, so then we apply same rules to daemonettes:
+MA +AG -PA -PA -PA -AV claw regen hypno gaze no hands
50 +20 +20 -5 -5 -5 -10 +10 +10 +40 -20 = 105. half amount above 100 gives 102, round to 100, reduce by 10 = 90.

I could see the daemonettes needing to be in the 90-100 range.


Surprised you put -20 on No Hands and -45 on Animal Savagery. No Hands can be mitigated on Necro as the have 4 other positionals that are already better equipped to be the ball handler.

And you still came in at 90k. Would be a bit cheeky to expect them to end up at 65k I guess...

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2023 - 09:11 Reply with quote Back to top

The rosters all got updated for 2020 edition, on the date of the blog you posted on, probably the same date as the 1st post in this thread. The blog explains the rosters hadn't been updated for the new edition.

So as nelpine says the price comes to over 100k. So they are priced correctly. Yes they could be adjusted down if needed. Time will tell. But they need more playtime.

Although I didn't like having to make this change, due to how broken hypno gaze is now I had to go the no hands route. Personally i think GW messed up with hypno. But that's another discussion. I disagree with your assessment that the roster is dead now however. It just plays differently to before. Previously the Daemonettes did everything. Now they are cage breakers, blodge ss, and ball sackers and the team can be built around that. Wrestle strip ball Dodge tackle. Since hypno will work pretty much everytime now. Sacking is the order of the day then use either the greater daemon or Linemen to move the ball.

Remember hypno also means the hypnod player can't use any skills now.

I understand your alarm as it's one of the biggest changes and I am hoping hypno is fixed in the forthcoming vampire spike. But the roster does still work and they are still very good players. They're just slower to skill now.

I have however made some enquiries about making hypno a variable roll like Loner. Don't know if it's possible. But if so I can get the team back to how everyone wants it. I'm not happy with the hypno situation too for what it's worth

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Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 31, 2023 - 12:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
So as nelpine says the price comes to over 100k. So they are priced correctly. Yes they could be adjusted down if needed. Time will tell. But they need more playtime.

Nelphine's calculation put them at 90k, he suggested they be priced dropped to 100k, they are currently at 110k.

The BB2020 version of the roster was hardly broken and did not need to be changed. The Hypno buff isn't that huge. There, I said it. Vamps and Daemons of Slannesh aren't winning anything.

Nelphine's Daemons of Slannesh team is 4/3/2 with the old rules (12/12 TDs by Daemonettes). Nightbreed has a team at 4/1/2, again with all their games under the old rules (9/10 TD's by Daemonettes). commisaro has a SLA team that had a 1/2/5 record under the old rules and Razmus has a team with a 1/0/1 record from a rookie rumble. I could not find a Blodge SS player on any team. They are also the only non-loner positional on the team, they are supposed to do everything. I looked at the tournaments run in the Rookie Rumble group and the Brawl group. Daemons of Slannesh have featured only twice for a combined record of 1 win, 2 losses.

The BB2020 version of the roster was hardly broken and did not need to be changed. The Hypno buff isn't that huge. There, I said it. Vamps and Daemons of Slannesh aren't winning anything, and it's been 18 months. It's not that broken (and yes, of course hypno turns off skills, why wouldn't it?), and it isn't impacting the metagame.

Perhaps I'm just a bitter pixel hugger, who is upset that his team's roster got changed to it's detriment, but with due respect I don't think this has been thought through. I've said my piece, and will walk away now, I do appreciate you listening.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 31, 2023 - 13:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Foad wrote:
Garion wrote:
So as nelpine says the price comes to over 100k. So they are priced correctly. Yes they could be adjusted down if needed. Time will tell. But they need more playtime.

Nelphine's calculation put them at 90k, he suggested they be priced dropped to 100k, they are currently at 110k.


His is not the official way of pricing. There is potential room for price deduction though, but I want to see if what I mention below is possible first.

Foad wrote:
The BB2020 version of the roster was hardly broken and did not need to be changed. The Hypno buff isn't that huge. There, I said it. Vamps and Daemons of Slannesh aren't winning anything.


They were border line tier zero previously once developed albeit had a tricky start.
A developed team for example - https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=878945

DoS were winning things too. Vamps also have a huge negatrait, DoS did not, though now do in no hands.

The hypno change is HUUUUGE, hypno on 2+ and removing the ability for opposing players to use any defensive skills made them totally busted.



Foad wrote:
Perhaps I'm just a bitter pixel hugger, who is upset that his team's roster got changed to it's detriment, but with due respect I don't think this has been thought through. I've said my piece, and will walk away now, I do appreciate you listening.


It has been thought through I can assure you. And none of us (in the design team) are happy with this change, but it was all we can do for now, I am however seeing if there is a way to make Hypno variable like loner so I can return the roster to what I want it to be.

The roster is still good however it just plays very differently. keep going with them, you just need to build the team around sacking. As I say I am working on a possible way to fix this. As currently I'm not happy either. But we will see. I can't say whether or not my idea to fix this problem is possible yet.

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Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 31, 2023 - 14:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Defensive in for Hypno. I like that. Is that a CIBBL thing?

Like I said, I've had my rant and will move on - but out of curiosity, who else is on the design team?

I mean I get it, 63/20/33 is pretty solid, but it's actually below Nightbreeds average of 3214/1002/1217. At that TV, teams should be good.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 31, 2023 - 15:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Foad wrote:
Defensive in for Hypno. I like that. Is that a CIBBL thing?

yeah the players were hypno, but changed to defensive for a spell in cibbl.

I wont reveal anyones name on the design team unless they want me to. Some people are pretty hostile about any changes in SL. Not aimed at you to be clear, you've been perfectly polite. I would again state though - I am also not happy with this change and I'm looking into hypno solutions, so stay tuned.

Foad wrote:
I mean I get it, 63/20/33 is pretty solid, but it's actually below Nightbreeds average of 3214/1002/1217. At that TV, teams should be good.


League is always harder than Blackbox/ranked to achieve a good ratio, as you have to play much more variable tv differences etc, and typically in league there are divisions in which the best teams/races/coaches are all at the top.

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