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smeborg



Joined: Jan 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 22:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I am enjoying BB2020 in FUMBBL very much, so many thanks to Christer and no doubt others for making this possible.

It occurs to me that there may be a loophole in the rules at re-draft. If you allow teams to carry forward SPPs on players into the next season, this allows "gaming" of the system. Just accumulate 6 (or 17, lol) SPPs on each player, do not take any skills. Then, after the first game of the new season, buy lots of skills.

My suggestion is to not allow SPPs to be carried forward. Force the coach to "cash in the SPPs for skills" or lose them. I expect there are other ways, but this seems to be the simplest solution.

Note that this is a "flaw" in the GW ruleset (if I understand it correctly), nothing to do with FUMBBL (except that FUMBBL could pioneer the rule change).
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 22:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I think this is intentional rather than a loophole - so that you can if you wish save for a +strength for your first skill.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 22:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Consider a thing, though: the player "banking" lots of SPPs could die/be crippled in the first game of the new Season.
The new Casualty table leans towards MNG and Dead result (62.5%).


Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 13, 2021 - 22:22; edited 1 time in total
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 22:22 Reply with quote Back to top

It has been discussed a bit already. It seems part of the design of seasons. You save up SPP in season X and then spent to get, what is hopefully, your star player in X+1.

Getting 18-20 for a Stat up may take some coaches more than one season (even with the long FUMBBL seasons). I would not want to cash in SPP and I do not see it being implemented as would be a deviation from the written rules.
iena



Joined: Sep 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 00:06 Reply with quote Back to top

plan B:
just randomize any skill, will cost less at the end of the season, its funny and you will experience skill you usually wont.
Then at redraft players' cost will be lower and you wont miss the retired due to unwanted rolls.
Kransky



Joined: Sep 12, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 01:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah it’s not a flaw, it’s a intended design choice.
At the end of every season, you have the tactical option to:
1) Spend your spps on random skills and only redraft the good ones
2) Hoard your spps in order to get cheaper players for redraft and buy later

Forcing someone to spend them would cripple some teams. At what point do you force them? 3spp? 6spp? What if you were saving for a double or a stat increase (big guys saving for block)?

The same interesting decision occurs with cash in the bank at the end of a season. Do you spend your treasury on inducements in an attempt to win the final? Or do you save it up for next seasons’s redraft.
cromag



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 02:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
A player is not obliged to spend their SPP until they have enough to randomly select a characteristic improvement, at which point they must spend some or all
of their SPP


The saving of spp is fully factored into the rules and changing it would be irresponsible.

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smeborg



Joined: Jan 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 03:44 Reply with quote Back to top

OK, cool, Y'All are saying this is intentional and are fine with that.

I had a practical minor instance of it in my 15th game with a team in Competitive. In that game a player got just enough SPPs for his 3rd normal skill-up (which I took). Y'All are implying I should have kept the SPPs and waited until after the first game of the next season for a "free" skill-up (i.e. costing nothing at re-draft, the only cost being the opportunity cost of going the 1st game in the new season without the 3rd skill).

I simply flag that I think the rule can and will be "gamed" by some coaches accumulating (say) lots of rookie players with 6 SPPs, looking to carry them forward to the next season for the "free" skill-ups. That everyone can do this does not necessarily make it in the "spirit of the game".

Thanks, anyway, for your clarifications.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 04:34 Reply with quote Back to top

It's a game. People will game it.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 05:09 Reply with quote Back to top

We're all just saving for stats, at that exact point, and it's just a coincidence we will all decide post-redraft that was a bad idea and take some more basic skills after game 1 instead. Very Happy

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 11:09 Reply with quote Back to top

smeborg wrote:

I had a practical minor instance of it in my 15th game with a team in Competitive. In that game a player got just enough SPPs for his 3rd normal skill-up (which I took). Y'All are implying I should have kept the SPPs and waited until after the first game of the next season for a "free" skill-up (i.e. costing nothing at re-draft, the only cost being the opportunity cost of going the 1st game in the new season without the 3rd skill).

I simply flag that I think the rule can and will be "gamed" by some coaches accumulating (say) lots of rookie players with 6 SPPs, looking to carry them forward to the next season for the "free" skill-ups. That everyone can do this does not necessarily make it in the "spirit of the game".

Thanks, anyway, for your clarifications.


Arguing with the "spirit of the game" is bit subjective as we have seen here, on discord and on the pitch ongoing arguments what the spirit of the game actually would be with no common agreement.

Right now we have no redraft anyway, so you could have kept just playing.
But if we had seasons integrated already including the redraft I see also no problem with your described "loophole" but more part of the new tactical side of bBB20 team management:
Looting but not spending the SPP indicates that you have to abstain from TAKING a possibly useful skill on your ongoing campaign.
If you'd plan to accumulate 6 or 17 SPP on each player without skilling up would mean that you are fielding practically a rookie squad while the opponent might already have the tools to crush such a weakish squad team easily.
There is also the risk that the players might get hurt before the redraft and all the looted SPP might be wasted.
Also: if you reach 20SPP you have no more choice to save them anyway and have to spend SPP.
So it is a tricky thing to do and not an easy cheat "free" skill-up, you had to dedicate 15 games to play like this.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 11:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Wouldn't you also pay 20k more for each rookie you bank at 18 spps? So if you do that on say five players, you would "waste" 100k in agent fees, am I wrong?

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 12:00 Reply with quote Back to top

You still have to pay agent costs too. So hoarding isn’t all good. You won’t see teams full of hoarding players.

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Medon



Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 12:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey this sounds like blackjack. Hoard all the way up to 20spp, but not 21spp because then you have to spend it all
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 13:47
FUMBBL Staff
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People will meta game?
Surely not.

Oh hang on, yes they 100% will. Almost all of them, almost all the time, and that level of 'managing' skill will be a part of team managing skill and a key part of building a good team in second seasons for tournament entry etc.

Frankly you are very late to this party, and it has been theorised and discussed since the ruleset was leaked.

People are munchkins and will do anything for a perceived 0.01% advantage.
because they like their winz.

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