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Poll
Do you want to have the choice to always pick one of the Hive Mind's two most commen skills?
Yes, it makes team building way more interesting.
16%
 16%  [ 34 ]
No, let's keep it straight and always take the most common skill.
9%
 9%  [ 20 ]
I'm totally fine with either.
5%
 5%  [ 11 ]
I don't like either option.
2%
 2%  [ 5 ]
Resistance is futile.
33%
 33%  [ 68 ]
Can we assimilate pie? It would make being a drone so much more comfortable...
31%
 31%  [ 63 ]
Total Votes : 201


Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 07:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Wohoo, not alone in the Competitive sector anymore!

On the Thrower question: Frankly, I see no (Borg-)logical explanation to hire him at any point - unless the skills he starts with are on top of the Hive Mind's list (unlikely to happen). I would suggest that we stick with the rationale.

On the stat question: Saving for them would also break with the rationale, unless they are on top of the list. I suggest that we add stat increases to the Hive Mind's skill list, since they can now be viewed as a physical enhancement, reliably accessible. Luckily since we kept track of all assimilations, we can add the data from the past (though I doubt we were able to learn much about stat increases so far).


Some changes should be considered:

Orcs should be recruited as Renegade Orcs now (just like Skaven, Goblins, Elves etc.).

Skill choice rules should get an update. No random skills (as mentioned before) seems like a no-brainer to me.

First option on how SPP are to be spent: As soon as an upgrade is possible (i. e. a player has collected enough SPP), it should be executed. This would result in players frequently getting skills from their Primary categories, unless they happen to get enough SPP in one match to jump to the Secondary category.

The second option would be to go by the list and save up for the next skill, if it's one from the Secondary list (or a stat upgrade). Right now all Renegade Human Linemen would save up to buy Dodge first, then take Block as the second skill and afterwards again save up for Thick Skull. If stat upgrades get added to the list, this would go for them as well.

The first option creates Borg that look exactly the same (aside from stat damage and changes in the Hive Mind leading to different skill choices), the second allows for occasional variance.
Both options seem okay fluff-wise: The first is more about efficiency (aiming for quick upgrades), the second more about perfection (implementing the "best" skills - and stat upgrades - at all cost).

A third option would be a mix of both, for example a Cube could have to start saving for Secondary skill picks once half of the Drones are upgraded with a Primary skill that comes further down the list. This would go with an idea of the Cube being seen as one unit/entity.
Then again, such a solution woul be a) confusing/complicated and b) lead to the question, if it would be better to provide skills per list to the whole Cube/team: First skill pick would (right now) be Dodge, the second would be Block, the Third would be Thick Skull - no matter if it's the first skill for a player or a second etc. Not a good option to me since Borg Drones should look pretty much the same in my opinion.
To make it even more complicated, but logical, we could calculate how many assimilated opponents had a particular skill and aim for the same quota on any given team. This would make skill choices a bit more complicated, but the math could be done by the Hive Mind, easily accessible for coaches.

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Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 07:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
It has been a while since I thought about this.

I would say yes you may accumulate SPP for a stat roll. It feels like a valid option the hive would choose. Thus you would increase the quality of your drones.

Kill a Mino to get a Mino. Kill a ROgre to get a ROgre. Kill a troll of any kind to get a troll. Kill a human, imperial, or OWA thrower to get a thrower. Dead elves are always assimilated as elves no matter their position.

If we allow saving up for stat upgrades, we would have to provide rules for that. No individual choices for Borg! Laughing

I'm struggling with the idea of hiring a thrower, since it's not about physiology but skill. No other player keeps their skills during the assimilation process.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 09:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Rabe wrote:
Kondor wrote:
It has been a while since I thought about this.

I would say yes you may accumulate SPP for a stat roll. It feels like a valid option the hive would choose. Thus you would increase the quality of your drones.

Kill a Mino to get a Mino. Kill a ROgre to get a ROgre. Kill a troll of any kind to get a troll. Kill a human, imperial, or OWA thrower to get a thrower. Dead elves are always assimilated as elves no matter their position.

If we allow saving up for stat upgrades, we would have to provide rules for that. No individual choices for Borg! Laughing

I'm struggling with the idea of hiring a thrower, since it's not about physiology but skill. No other player keeps their skills during the assimilation process.


I am happy to defer to you on these decisions after all you are the mad genius that came up with the plan in the first place. I was just a caretaker. (And not a very good one at that.)

I see the logic with the thrower and that works for me.

I'm not quite there on stat increases. In the past, we required all stat increases to be taken as they inherently improved the performance of the cube and the hive. The have always wants stronger, faster, agile drones. I don't see stats as skill ups at all.

My recommendation is that this is the only choice a coach has on the team. While they cannot choose which stat to take, they can choose to save up for a random stat roll. If we want to remove all choice perhaps a second or third skill up should always be a random stat increase.

I would also say that if a coach is not saving for a stat roll, they must take the highest skill on the list. For example, in the current situation a drone must save for Dodge. An assimilated goblin must save for Block.
MolonLave



Joined: Jul 17, 2022

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 10:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor, Rabe - As it stands, the group page says "If a player of yours improves and rolls normal, simply pick the first skill from the top of the list that he/she can learn." I see 'normal' as meaning 'primary'. Therefore, I see two ways of applying this fluff: 1. As soon as a Marauder has 6spp, he can select Block because, it's the first primary skill on the list that he can learn with 6spp. 2. If, by some miracle, a player jumps to 12 spp (ie, skips 6 by getting a lot of spp in one game), then that player should take the first skill he is able to learn... ie dodge. Clearly, this system will prevent doubles from being taken as it's going to be very rare to achieve a huge spp jump in one game.

I propose another system, which will also manage the stat increases under BB20 rules.

Doubles occur one in six rolls. 10,11, or 12 occurs one in six rolls (of course, some of them are both).

The Borg desire to assimilate. Stat and doubles (secondary skills) increases help the Borg to assimilate others; therefore we should allow saving for a stat increase and secondary skills. Perhaps limit these to 'X' players per team or 'X' percent of the improvements.

Given that ALL stat increases must be taken, let's dictate that one in six improvements must be a stat increase. Each player is to achieve a stat increase before reaching legend.

For secondary skills, under the old rules we would have expected one double per six improvements, so let's dictate that each player must have one secondary skill - to be attained before reaching legend.

Coaches to determine at what point a player aims for the stat up and secondary.

Also - max one stat up, max one secondary per player.

Very Borg!

Thoughts?
MolonLave



Joined: Jul 17, 2022

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 10:07 Reply with quote Back to top

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 10:08 Reply with quote Back to top

You could go with a list of skills the team must take, with duplicates for more common ones.

So, someone has to take dodge, then someone has to take block, then someone has to take thick skull, and down the list you go.

If the player with dodge dies, then the next skill up needs to be dodge again.

But as long as skills 1-10 are present in the team, then skill 11 can be taken.

And obviously the hive will put Block on the player who is best to have Block, for good of the the hive, and Thick Skull on the player who is best to have Thick Skull, and so on. New combinations of the talents of different species are to be celebrated.

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Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 10:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I might have a solution for both problems - very statistical, but in the end okay to proceed. And very Borg, I think! MolonLave, your thoughts on stat upgrades added to that, I'll have to integrate these and create a table to make it unterstandable. I'll see when I get to it. Smile

Thanks for the input!

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Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 10:31 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
You could go with a list of skills the team must take, with duplicates for more common ones.

So, someone has to take dodge, then someone has to take block, then someone has to take thick skull, and down the list you go.

If the player with dodge dies, then the next skill up needs to be dodge again.

But as long as skills 1-10 are present in the team, then skill 11 can be taken.

And obviously the hive will put Block on the player who is best to have Block, for good of the the hive, and Thick Skull on the player who is best to have Thick Skull, and so on. New combinations of the talents of different species are to be celebrated.

Sorry, hadn't seen your answer. Yeah, my thoughts go into the same direction, just with less freedom of choice. Wink

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 10:42 Reply with quote Back to top

MolonLave wrote:
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Hey, could you remove the 003 from the image then repost it.
That way we could all use it!
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 11:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Since Niggles have only minor in game consequences, Niggled players should not be retired. It would be a waste of useful material.

Does a coach have the option to get rid of rerolls or must he keep 5?
Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 12:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd say we have to keep them. They are team re-rolls and teamwork is what Borg excel at. Laughing

Since retirement is optional right now, it's (strangely enought) up to the coach to decide wheter to retire a damaged drone or not. Smile

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 15:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Rabe wrote:
I'd say we have to keep them. They are team re-rolls and teamwork is what Borg excel at. Laughing

Since retirement is optional right now, it's (strangely enought) up to the coach to decide wheter to retire a damaged drone or not. Smile


When my Secret League Cube grew, I eliminated two rerolls. That team is down to 3. Also just noticed that when they switched rules, it looks like my guys lost their skills. I now have a team with zero official games played, an elf, a goblin and 3 rerolls.

I am very frustrated because I have not used the team in a while and I did not see the change had occurred. (It appears I am not conforming to the rules. Annoying.)

With the new rules the added rerolls may be very helpful on a team with no core skills.
Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 16:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Indeed. I played one match and I loved how I could perform risky moves, knowing that a failed GFI (or "Rush") attempt would not be the end once an RR was used on an important Dodge roll. Cool

Too bad about the League Cube. Confused I guess there are many dangers for the Borg out there - sometimes even a rule change!

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Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 22:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Major Update

The Hive Mind has processed the new Drone training possibilities and created a new, optimized routine.
Progress has been made towards Cube optimization: From now on, Drones will still be improved with the abilities most often found in analyses of captured entities, but the ratio of abilities found will be replicated within a given Cube.

Skills are still taken from the top of the Hive Mind list to its bottom, but skills that have been found less often can now only be taken by a few players on the team, if at all.
If no skills from the list a available (because a player already has them all or due to team restrictions), stat upgrades are the next target - which will rarely happen.
To make variety a bit more likely, if at any given time several players are ready for an upgrade, the least developed have to pick up skills first (if allowed by the rules), so that more developed players might learn some less featured skills or even save up for stat increases.

Updating the skill list has become more complicated, I'm doing the math in an external spreadsheet. I will take over that part from now on.


The whole process ist encoded in the Hive Mind and under evaluation.

Please let me know if it is understandable! I just wrote it down quickly, confusion is likely. Any hints on how to improve the explanation are very welcome! Smile

Edit: An example would probably help, maybe I can create one at some point. Feel free to contact me/us in this thread if players of yours are ready to skill, we can go through the process together then!

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Dalfort



Joined: Jun 23, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 19, 2022 - 01:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Competitive Invasion Cube 002

First Mission Report:

2022-08-19 Open Competitive Sector
Enemy Force: Black Orc
Victory 3-0
Subject Assimilated: None
No Data added to the Hive Mind
Upgrade attained by: Nine of Fourteen and Eleven of Fourteen awaiting confirmation that Block should be imparted to both these subjects.
Full report has been logged

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