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SideshowBob



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 09:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
chaos warrior that swaps M access and 1 point of armour, for dodge/defensive and 1 point of movement, +10k

not that excessive although it will make for a fantastic ball carrier in most match ups


Aye also very hard to get 2db on that one since you cannot use guard
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 11:01 Reply with quote Back to top

SideshowBob wrote:
Java wrote:
chaos warrior that swaps M access and 1 point of armour, for dodge/defensive and 1 point of movement, +10k

not that excessive although it will make for a fantastic ball carrier in most match ups


Aye also very hard to get 2db on that one since you cannot use guard


Well, guard is not the only way to give an assist. I'd say more often than not, assists are normal people standing next to another one, so I wouldn't rate defensive as high as it seems.

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Klunker



Joined: Apr 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 11:26 Reply with quote Back to top

SideshowBob wrote:
Aye also very hard to get 2db on that one since you cannot use guard


But you CAN use guard against them.
Defensive only works when Amazons are on offense.
It does nothing during the opposing team's turn.
Jokaero



Joined: Dec 24, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 11:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Klunker wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:
Aye also very hard to get 2db on that one since you cannot use guard


But you CAN use guard against them.
Defensive only works when Amazons are on offense.
It does nothing during the opposing team's turn.


No, it's the other way around. It only works in the opponent's turn, i.e. NOT in the amazon's turn. That's probably why it's called Defensive. At least that's a good way to remember it.
98smithg



Joined: Oct 06, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Its all going to hinge on how much str they get, I could easily see it being 0, 2 or 4. And it makes a big difference. My bet is 2
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 15:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine said it best.
If they have GS access they are crazy cheap for what they do and the potential they have. You could count dodge and defensive as 'primary' for 20k or secondary for 40k but either way they are a substantial discount compared to other S4 pieces.
vs Centaur: Lose 3 tier 2 skills and an armor (70k value) and pickup an agility and a tier 1 and tier 3 skill (80-120k value) and cost 20k cheaper.
vs ulfwerener: Lose 1 tier 1.5 skills (20k value) gain 1 passing, 1 AG, and 1 T1/T3 skills (90-130k value) for 5k more.
vs Chaos Chosen Blocker: Lose 1 armor (10k value), gain 1 MA, and the skills (60-100k value) and cost 10k more.
vs Saurs: Lose 1 Armor (10k value), gain 2 AG, 2 skills (120-160k value) 30k more expensive.

AG3 + S4 + Dodge is scary. With break tackle you have a 50/50 of being able to dodge into a cage and 2die most ball carriers. With block, sure hands, and defensive, most teams will struggle to even get a 1 die block. When you consider this is an AMAZON roster and their cages are really powerful with universal dodge, it means you are very unlikely to even get that 1 die with many rosters and will settle for a 2 die upblock. But if you do get the 1 die hit, with a wrestle tackler, you only have a 50/50 of popping that ball out. Then she just dodges away from you on her turn on a 3++, picks the ball back up with a 3++ and continues on her merry way.
That piece alone prevents the classic "amazons start good but don't scale well" trope they've had.
Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 16:37 Reply with quote Back to top

They still only have av7. That is and remains the weakness once they are at a level where tackle (and mblow) is more common. Statistically they will have players leaving the field.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 17:03 Reply with quote Back to top

nah, the jaguar has av 9+, not 8+ like the rest of the team. and they still have 50k linemen - they easily have 13+ players on the roster by the time you get to 1300 tv (they're still cheaper than pro elves as a team). And while you are right, they will start to face dedicated hitters who have mighty blow and tackle, MOST opposition still won't have tackle. Which means most of their random players are still going to stay (due to dodge and easy access to block) on the pitch much longer than most other teams.

For anyone who has seen Morg be useless against anyone, we know that the mighty blow player simply can't rely on 1 or 2 good hitters to remove enough players to matter. And the amazons now get MA7 and on the ball, negating the biggest weakness (only having MA6, which makes 2 and 3 turn touchdowns much more difficult) they had previously.

i expect this team to be worse at 1000 tv, but better at 1300 tv than previously (and they were still 60%+ win rate at 1300 in the old version)
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 17:07 Reply with quote Back to top

unless the linewomen lose G access and gain A access? That would significantly change their ability to improve..
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 17:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
unless the linewomen lose G access and gain A access? That would significantly change their ability to improve..


Yeah limiting general access on the roster is pretty much the only way I don't see them being absurd at mid level TV where pretty much all league play with redraft rules live.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 20:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
unless the linewomen lose G access and gain A access? That would significantly change their ability to improve..

That would certainly shake things up a bit.

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Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 20:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
nah, the jaguar has av 9+, not 8+ like the rest of the team. and they still have 50k linemen - they easily have 13+ players on the roster by the time you get to 1300 tv (they're still cheaper than pro elves as a team). And while you are right, they will start to face dedicated hitters who have mighty blow and tackle, MOST opposition still won't have tackle. Which means most of their random players are still going to stay (due to dodge and easy access to block) on the pitch much longer than most other teams.


Yes - but then, always remember that teams are designed for tabeltop, and small, private leagues primarily. Not in an open setting like fumbbl. That is - in the game as designed for non-online play most people will know they'll face an amazon team, and can skill up with that in mind.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 20:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Mnemon wrote:
Nelphine wrote:
nah, the jaguar has av 9+, not 8+ like the rest of the team. and they still have 50k linemen - they easily have 13+ players on the roster by the time you get to 1300 tv (they're still cheaper than pro elves as a team). And while you are right, they will start to face dedicated hitters who have mighty blow and tackle, MOST opposition still won't have tackle. Which means most of their random players are still going to stay (due to dodge and easy access to block) on the pitch much longer than most other teams.


Yes - but then, always remember that teams are designed for tabeltop, and small, private leagues primarily. Not in an open setting like fumbbl. That is - in the game as designed for non-online play most people will know they'll face an amazon team, and can skill up with that in mind.


People tend to overlook this a lot.
In our league, as soon as there were two elves out of eight teams, tackle became everyone else's priority, even before mb.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 20:47 Reply with quote Back to top

I think you're giving them too much credit. I've played in several leagues, and you just can't afford too much tackle early on - you need things like Block, Guard, and Dodge on your own players. Sure you'll get one right away, and perhaps a second by the 1300ish mark, but more than that is rare.

Your random lino still won't have tackle, which makes incidental blocks much much harder.

2d block against an av 9+ player (no block on either player, so we'll only count pow/push or pow as a knockdown)
5/9 knockdown, 10/36 armour break = 50/324 = 25/162 = 15.4% chance of armour break

2d block against a dodge av 8+ player (still no block)
91/216 knockdown, 15/36 armour break = (91*15)/(216*36) = (91*5)/72*36 = 455/2592 = 28.4/162 = 17.5% chance of armour break

those incidental add up, particularly at under 1500tv, and the av 9+ team loses almost as any many players as the amazon team.


Last edited by Nelphine on Sep 28, 2022 - 20:54; edited 1 time in total
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2022 - 20:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I am just annoyed that on a team with one positional named a blitzer and another named a blocker, neither come with block. They should have named the positionals something besides blockers and blitzers.
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