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Poll
Should Agent Fees be enabled in redraft on FUMMBL for C Div?
Yes
50%
 50%  [ 28 ]
No
32%
 32%  [ 18 ]
Pie
16%
 16%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 55


JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 01:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Here on Fumbbl people love their pixels. Out there, people just love the game.
I'm not judging anyone, mind you, but I think this is the blunt truth of it.

If Fumbbl wants to cater to its own people, then disabling agent fees is probably the best choice for the environment we have here, I agree. But I think Fumbbl became what it is because it has always tried very hard (and sometimes very painfully) to just be the automated, popular and easy to use version of tabletop. The closer, the better. If Fumbbl became a spinoff of the true game, so to speak, it would have a player base of its own, diverging and not converging with the world out there.

Now. GW decided to rewrite the latest set of rules SPECIFICALLY with tabletop in mind. Short, long lasting leagues are the "core" game now. Which means that some nonsense like open play, or teams with 200+ games in a few months, or multiple legends, or super-high tv, got a cut in potential fun because some other aspect of the rules was deemed more important.

This is pretty much a self evident truth. Now the question is if Fumbbl should take a stance against that or not, considering what it would mean for its status as THE online bb experience and considering the recent challenges to such status (namely, three blood bowl games in the last 12 years).

My answer is "I don't know". But I think there might be more to consider than just the spps and tv count of the two options.

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ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 02:37 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Here on Fumbbl people love their pixels. Out there, people just love the game.
I'm not judging anyone, mind you, but I think this is the blunt truth of it.

If Fumbbl wants to cater to its own people, then disabling agent fees is probably the best choice for the environment we have here, I agree. But I think Fumbbl became what it is because it has always tried very hard (and sometimes very painfully) to just be the automated, popular and easy to use version of tabletop. The closer, the better. If Fumbbl became a spinoff of the true game, so to speak, it would have a player base of its own, diverging and not converging with the world out there.

Now. GW decided to rewrite the latest set of rules SPECIFICALLY with tabletop in mind. Short, long lasting leagues are the "core" game now. Which means that some nonsense like open play, or teams with 200+ games in a few months, or multiple legends, or super-high tv, got a cut in potential fun because some other aspect of the rules was deemed more important.

This is pretty much a self evident truth. Now the question is if Fumbbl should take a stance against that or not, considering what it would mean for its status as THE online bb experience and considering the recent challenges to such status (namely, three blood bowl games in the last 12 years).

My answer is "I don't know". But I think there might be more to consider than just the spps and tv count of the two options.


+1

Christer has for nearly 20 years stated that fumbbl is a true representation of the TT game.

However all is not lost, League is the sand box of gimmicks and rule amendments... have at it.

I for one really enjoy the team / club aspect of BB2020 and cant wait for re-draft.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 03:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I would like to point out that I did not point out the 3rd option, the compromise option.

Option 1&2 are the extremes.

Option 3 is hard coded into the site to enable free seasons before agent fees kick in. Christer could go this route and say for example the first 2 seasons are free with no agent fees. Once the player enters season 3 he starts to take on agent fees from that point forward.

Thus Christer does not have to anything but make a choice. Alternate rules for seasons are interesting but the core rules have allready been coded into the site.

So there are actually 3 options on agent fess… yes/no or enable free seasons for 1 or 2 seasons. I would say 3+ is to much and defeats the compromise. I lean to 2 free seasons but if it came down to it 1 free season or agent fees are set at 0 (which is the yes vote), you know how I would vote on a compromise.

Iam running out of time and I think Jan had a good post and will respond to that later.

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MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 09:03 Reply with quote Back to top

If you want houserules, just play in leagues. Its really that simple.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 10:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Bwa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaa!

You can even still play 2016 if you want to. Twisted Evil

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 11:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Rules for RRRs have been slightly tweaked to disallow stars though.

It's the slippery slope I tells ya!

What next? disabling wildly inaccurate? From there it could be only a small step to having people cavorting naked in the streets!

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 11:44 Reply with quote Back to top

You work in Marketing, Koadah? Laughing

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 16:11 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Here on Fumbbl people love their pixels. Out there, people just love the game.
I'm not judging anyone, mind you, but I think this is the blunt truth of it.


Yep, you are right BUT the the people out there love their metal/plastic toys to paint and make shiny, they love their custom pitches and they like meeting in person to play. Remove those aspect of the game for the people out there and you have a riot on your hands.

JanMattys wrote:
If Fumbbl wants to cater to its own people, then disabling agent fees is probably the best choice for the environment we have here, I agree.


Why would FUMBBL not cater to its "own"? That makes no sense in the real world. You always cater to your customer base. Your statement actually makes it sound like catering to your own player base is a bad thing.

JanMattys wrote:
But I think Fumbbl became what it is because it has always tried very hard (and sometimes very painfully) to just be the automated, popular and easy to use version of tabletop. The closer, the better. If Fumbbl became a spinoff of the true game, so to speak, it would have a player base of its own, diverging and not converging with the world out there.


Oh the visionary has been summoned inside you Jan. yet Iam not buying it.

So setting agent fees to NO or compromise (cater to your client base in C) is now considered a spin off?

Everything I have proposed/talked about was hard coded into the site by Christer. You are aware of this right? Iam not coming up with a custom version of how to calculate agent costs.

Spin off? FUMBBL is the king of Spin off rivaled by none! Granted housed in their own Divs. but FUMBBL has spin off galore. Yeah, Yeah, I hear that guy on the back bench yelling that C is the only div on FUMBBL that caters to the entire site for one off/sit and play action. Techincally that is not true but I will run with it.

SO...agent fees are the Rubicon of spin off rules for C? I was under the impression that not enabling seasons in C was the Rubicon river. So agent fees must be a branch of the Rubicon river, more like a stream or creek.

The self evident truth of the matter is .0001% of the player base would leave, rage quit and disgust if the agent fees was set at 2 free seasons in C. 99.9998% leave for other reasons than that. Core rule cages (like switching entire rule sets), they leave beacuse FUMBBL is not shiny and hip. There are hundreds of reason why coaches leave FUMBBL for ever.

Now I dont want to leave that point on a downer so here it is. FUMBBL gains hundreds of new coaches because how awesome FUMBBL is. FUMBBL caters to everyones style and taste. Unlike other Blood Bowl sites.

The only thing FUMBBL does not have is Dungeon Bowl. Where in the heck is Dungeon Bowl? You could make a lucid argument that some coaches do not play on FUMBBL for the simple fact FUMBBL does not have a Dungeon Bowl Div.


JanMattys wrote:
Now. GW decided to rewrite the latest set of rules SPECIFICALLY with tabletop in mind. Short, long lasting leagues are the "core" game now. Which means that some nonsense like open play, or teams with 200+ games in a few months, or multiple legends, or super-high tv, got a cut in potential fun because some other aspect of the rules was deemed more important.

This is pretty much a self evident truth. Now the question is if Fumbbl should take a stance against that or not, considering what it would mean for its status as THE online bb experience and considering the recent challenges to such status (namely, three blood bowl games in the last 12 years).

My answer is "I don't know". But I think there might be more to consider than just the spps and tv count of the two options.


Well that is very true that the new rule set caters specifically for table top gaming. FUMBBL has adapted to that by once again changing its rule set, enable all cool and fun features on the site to make this all happen.

BUT agent fees in C? cant compromise to cater to the C dedicated coaches?

Agent fees do not effect game play. It is a simple mechanism to force coaches to in essence redraft new teams every 1-3 seasons of play by forcing coaches to retire skilled players. Great for table top leagues, not great for C div play for some/most/? cant calculate the %.

It is not like we are talking about the dreaded CPOMB in the R/B div. I was behind chirster not disabling CPOMB or nerfing it because by doing so would seriously impact game play balance for that rule set. It would also make Christer look like he is taking sides over that issue and that would split the player base and FUMBBL would lose coaches over it.

The choice for Christer and his advisors is really simple on agent fees.

Yes
No
Or compromise and set free season at 1 or 2 for agent fees in C.

There are no other options for him to reflect upon, contemplate, meditate on or consider.

peace out and have fun playing Blood Bowl while I work another Staurday.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2022 - 16:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm all for the compromise version. But, you haven't responded to any of my comments that getting and keeping (a single) legend on a team is NOT difficult in 2020, even with 'standard' agent fees. Thoughts?
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2022 - 01:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
I'm all for the compromise version. But, you haven't responded to any of my comments that getting and keeping (a single) legend on a team is NOT difficult in 2020, even with 'standard' agent fees. Thoughts?

Annoyingly true.....for some teams.

The example dorf runner I was using has played 51 games (was a legend at 38 ). So after the [C] seasons (45 games), he would only be an extra 60k agency fees.

Image 345k+60 = 405k

Not so true for more expensive team like Necro or lizzies. The agency fees very much favours teams with 1 or 2 stars (like UW) and teams with good base skills at 1000k TV like dorfs. It very much discriminates against teams that ideally spread skills amongst the team, like the chaos teams.

I like that a team (especially bashed up ones) can replace the whole squad if the want. I dislike that every team has to after a season or two. If I have a troll that does nothing for an entire season, then kills Morg in the last match for his only 2spps I want to keep him for fun. Sure I could probably afford 20k this season just for fun, but then next season it's 40k, etc.

PainState wrote:
I lean to 2 free seasons but if it came down to it 1 free season or agent fees are set at 0 (which is the yes vote), you know how I would vote on a compromise.

I'd prefer no agents fees until a player reaches emerging star, rather than based on seasons. I think that makes more sense fluff-wise and I have a real dislike for routinely sacking rookie players purely to dodge agent fees.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 03, 2022 - 07:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
I'm all for the compromise version. But, you haven't responded to any of my comments that getting and keeping (a single) legend on a team is NOT difficult in 2020, even with 'standard' agent fees. Thoughts?


Gaining and keeping a single legend is not really a problem but there are too many caveats.

To get that legend you need to pick a quick skilling positional. Almost certainly you will also need to take random skills. If your keep that legend you have to sacrifice you other players to do it.

I enjoy TEAM building. A couple of legends and a few stars. Maybe a few superstars on a team.

I don't enjoy playing mostly rookie teams. Frankly I dislike seasons entirely. I have played much less on fumbbl since this edition was implemented and seasons are not in play yet. Knowing they are coming has dampened my enthusiasm to play and build my teams.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 03, 2022 - 08:58 Reply with quote Back to top

You're team building all the time in BB20, and BB16 if we'd ever had seasons for it.

Like, if you want to keep multiple players, you gotta fit 5 skilled players into 1250. That's not difficult.

If you want keep 10 skilled players, sure, that's hard, only a few teams can really do it, and less if you want full positions, but so what, there was only ever a handful of teams could maintain 10 skilled players in any edition of the game.

And in-season, your 6 or so rookies gain skills, because there's random MVPs, so you're team building again. Like, which bit of team building is missing? The type where you're playing 1800+ TV guard-firm MB spam on Orcs, Dorfs, Chorfs, Chaos, and Nurgs all the time, and pretending like you didn't ever get a TV trim now and then?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 03, 2022 - 11:38 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
Like, which bit of team building is missing? The type where you're playing 1800+ TV guard-firm MB spam on Orcs, Dorfs, Chorfs, Chaos, and Nurgs all the time, and pretending like you didn't ever get a TV trim now and then?


Oh yeah there were trims but not guaranteed to happen at a certain time and not guaranteed take you all the way down to 1350 or lower.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 03, 2022 - 12:54 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:


And in-season, your 6 or so rookies gain skills, because there's random MVPs, so you're team building again. Like, which bit of team building is missing? The type where you're playing 1800+ TV guard-firm MB spam on Orcs, Dorfs, Chorfs, Chaos, and Nurgs all the time, and pretending like you didn't ever get a TV trim now and then?


What is missing is the ability to build your team how you want it to whatever TV you want it to be. I have two teams I enjoyed using the most. My high elf team hit 2000 TV a couple of times and hovered around 1600 to 1800. My Nurgle team has a one skill rotter with 272 games played.

With seasons neither of those are very likely and frankly it sucks most of the fun out of the game for me.

If seasons are never implemented, people will be able to play the game at whatever TV they desire with any team they like. Implementing seasons denies flexibility and from my perspective it just plain sucks.
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 03, 2022 - 15:21 Reply with quote Back to top

FUMBBL main division should play every single rule from the rulebook exactly as written with no variation. That's how you keep new players coming in and that's how you keep FUMBBL relevant.

Its great that FUMBBL provides an option to run other leagues/divisions where some deviation from the rules as written is possible - but this should always be the side dish, not the main meal.
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