FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joost

Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 18:05

I guess we can't stop it but I don't like the idea. The audience commenting on my play is fine. The other player doing so is disrespectful and I don't appreciate someone like JimmyFantastic apparently doing so without letting me know (if RDaneel is correct).

edit: I like Badger89's idea. If someone is streaming me I can at least follow it myself too.

ArrestedDevelopment

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 18:37

The reason you typically don't see a streamer tell you they are streaming is because a stream generally is said streamer monologuing exactly what they're doing/going to do that turn. Or the next turn, plans for the drive etc. Some streamers will also pass comment on what they expect their opponent to do in response to that, or even "what they hope their opponent won't/will do".
There is occasional/minimal (dependent on streamer) interactions with their chat, usually along the lines of a "hello" or "how are you doing in your game that is currently ongoing".

You'd be perfectly within your rights given the rules Christer has made to watch the stream and obtain all that information about what they intend to do in their match vs you, or hope you don't. But most people who do participate in streaming would consider that a bit of a socially inept move. Certainly it makes things rather awkward for all involved - to the extent that if someone in chat ends up matched vs a streamer, it's pretty much the accepted thing that you leave the stream. Because if you don't then the streamer is left with the position of having to guesstimate whether you are using any information you may get from them to your advantage - the end result of which is the cessation of said information to the detriment of the stream.

This is true in pretty much every game that has a matchmaker and any element of strategy.

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MerryZ

Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 18:54

I wouldnt think its rude to join stream chat if commenting that game goes there from actual game o.O

Not sure I would bother but then again might be fun Wink

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.

Joost

Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 20:09

I donâ€™t think it would be fun either. But I also donâ€™t like the idea of being made fun of or insulted by my opponent behind my back, either about the game or about a conversation in chat. In game chat does not allow that. Nor would a tabletop game. Streaming is different to me in that regard. And yes, i acknowledge that realistically neither me nor the site can do anything to stop it except hope not to run into someone like that in the Box. Iâ€™m not affected enough to play less over it, but I donâ€™t like it.

Joost

Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 20:12

And @AD: i wouldnâ€™t watch it for an in game advantage. I probably wouldnâ€™t want to watch it at all. But if the stream is clearly communicated it would mean I could join, which would hopefully keep the streamer / opponent respectful.

ArrestedDevelopment

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 20:26

I think a lot of people seem to be making a lot of assumptions about how streamers in general talk about their opponents without ever having seen a stream, or having a very restricted exposure to streaming.

I can't talk about every streamer, but for the most part, you aren't being insulted. You as a person are barely even being commented on beyond "oh he's dodged here" or whatever.

There is a level of community outside the community about twitch itself, therefore yes, some people might actually indeed resort to gossip about others, but that's very, very rarely revolving around the game at hand and in that scenario it's really no different from discord or irc before it.

Twitch, by default, itself stores VODs of games for a period of time after broadcast and you would be perfectly able to see, with video evidence, if anyone disparaged you without actually being present for it happening.

It would seem to me to be much more convenient to deal with this on an individual basis as and where necessary rather than make a ruling that is constrictive.

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moph

Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 20:55

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

You'd be perfectly within your rights given the rules Christer has made to watch the stream (...). But most people who do participate in streaming would consider that a bit of a socially inept move. Certainly it makes things rather awkward for all involved

I think with a game like bloodbowl it could also be considered as a social inept move, to not chat with you opponent, but with your friends in another room.
And then even telling your opponent "its not cool if you come in here." The arguement being that you should always expect your game to be streamed, the streamer maybe should always expect his opponent being in the chat.
And the friendly social behaviour of the streamer should be to tell the opponent that he is in a room with a lot of other people whilest playing and invinting him to join. That I mean if its important to keep up a sense of community between the playerbase.

Joost

Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 21:08

moph wrote:

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

You'd be perfectly within your rights given the rules Christer has made to watch the stream (...). But most people who do participate in streaming would consider that a bit of a socially inept move. Certainly it makes things rather awkward for all involved

I think with a game like bloodbowl it could also be considered as a social inept move, to not chat with you opponent, but with your friends in another room.
And then even telling your opponent "its not cool if you come in here." The arguement being that you should always expect your game to be streamed, the streamer maybe should always expect his opponent being in the chat.
And the friendly social behaviour of the streamer should be to tell the opponent that he is in a room with a lot of other people whilest playing and invinting him to join. That I mean if its important to keep up a sense of community between the playerbase.

Very much this. @AD I'm not asking for extra rules. Christer and the admins have work enough to do, even if it could be enforced (and I'm probably in a minority here anyway). I'm just expressing frustration at what I think is a wrong development.

ArrestedDevelopment

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 21:12

moph wrote:

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

You'd be perfectly within your rights given the rules Christer has made to watch the stream (...). But most people who do participate in streaming would consider that a bit of a socially inept move. Certainly it makes things rather awkward for all involved

I think with a game like bloodbowl it could also be considered as a social inept move, to not chat with you opponent, but with your friends in another room.
And then even telling your opponent "its not cool if you come in here." The arguement being that you should always expect your game to be streamed, the streamer maybe should always expect his opponent being in the chat.
And the friendly social behaviour of the streamer should be to tell the opponent that he is in a room with a lot of other people whilest playing and invinting him to join. That I mean if its important to keep up a sense of community between the playerbase.

I am genuinely perplexed that you appear to fail to understand what I am saying here:

It is considered socially inept for someone to hang around in an arena where there opponent is going to tell them exactly what they wish to do every single turn, and their plans for the drive.

It's inept because it's impossible not to glean an advantage, or willingly lead the streamer to cease to do that, killing the potentially educational value for the rest of the prospective audience.

You'd be more than welcome to come in after the match and discuss it then, or sit in the peanut gallery for any other game. Just sitting in on your own is a bit awkward for everyone.

This is the same for plenty of other games that are directly, or somewhat comparable RTS, MOBA, team FPS etc.

The chat a streamer has with the people in the room while they are playing is not some back and forth idle chit-chat. It is a running commentary of the match at hand and if they were to be typing it to an opponent games would last an aeon. It would also be somewhat boring to sit on the other side of.

The vast majority of streamers are still typing "hello" or "glhf" and "gg". Anything beyond that is often a minefield anyway.

@Joost this change in rules is actually only codifying what was decided the last time this was discussed 2 years ago on discord. As such, it's not a new development.

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RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 21:14

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

The reason you typically don't see a streamer tell you they are streaming is because a stream generally is said streamer monologuing exactly what they're doing/going to do that turn. Or the next turn, plans for the drive etc. Some streamers will also pass comment on what they expect their opponent to do in response to that, or even "what they hope their opponent won't/will do".

[...]

You'd be perfectly within your rights given the rules Christer has made to watch the stream and obtain all that information about what they intend to do in their match vs you, or hope you don't. But most people who do participate in streaming would consider that a bit of a socially inept move.

Does someone want to stream his match? Maybe on headphones he is connected with a friend of him who is coaching him? Or just he wants to share with the public his strategy?

Fine. does it. It's all legal now with the last FUMBBL site rules update.

So it's also unquestionably legal that anyone can go to the streamer's channel and watch (because is Public)

If someone likes to stream the blood-bowl strategy (or whatever real time stream for social perspective) he can do that. He can broadcast the game of two other coaches. But if he streams HIS OWN game and wants to play the role of the commentator and player then he cannot expect any privacy on a PUBLIC channel.

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

Certainly it makes things rather awkward for all involved - to the extent that if someone in chat ends up matched vs a streamer, it's pretty much the accepted thing that you leave the stream.

It's an unwritten rule maybe a netiquette maybe but I don't find it outrageous for a person to watch a Streamer's channel if the Streamer decidse to make it public (...and you don't even have to have an account to watch a match: you can connect from a PC to the channel even if you don't have a TwitchTV account you won't even be mentioned in the chat so this thing you say is totally impossible to prevent).

The Streamer is the one who wants to share his strategy "real time" with the whole world, then he must not complain if his opponent comes and watch his channel. You can call him socially vile or inept -- but what are you going to do about it...

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ArrestedDevelopment

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 21:18

I've already said the FUMBBL rules allow you to do just this. I'm merely saying I think placing a requirement on the streamer to tell you they are streaming their match goes a step beyond and simply makes it very likely many people either reduce the quality of their stream or cease to stream FUMBBL games. Which is completely against what we want - publicity for the site with the hope of growth.

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C0ddlefish

Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 21:35

I don't watch that many games at all. Maybe the handful that get mentioned to me as particularly interesting or exciting. Typically these involved the very biggest names and they are on BB2.

This may distort my viewpoint but I'd say in the vast majority of these cases I'm learning by what I see, not by what is said. From my relative limited experience it's rare to hear "I'm going to do X here because.....". It feels like much more of it is general chat around BB2/BB3/the state of Blood Bowl in general/what other streamers have been up to. However I think it's also fair to say (even from the most 'vocal') of these streamers I've rarely heard them bad mouth their opponent, in fact they are often nearly completely unmentioned

moph

Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 21:44

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

It is considered socially inept for someone to hang around in an arena where there opponent is going to tell them exactly what they wish to do every single turn, and their plans for the drive.

It's inept because it's impossible not to glean an advantage, or willingly lead the streamer to cease to do that, killing the potentially educational value for the rest of the prospective audience.
(...)
This is the same for plenty of other games that are directly, or somewhat comparable RTS, MOBA, team FPS etc.

The chat a streamer has with the people in the room while they are playing is not some back and forth idle chit-chat. It is a running commentary of the match at hand and if they were to be typing it to an opponent games would last an aeon. It would also be somewhat boring to sit on the other side of.
(...)

I think I did understand your point. But I made an argument that it doesn't have to be this way.
I watched a lot of videos of BB2 streams and my impression was that most of them were more entertainig communitiy banter than of educational value (those were often replays).
I think its possible to have both: tell your opppnent you are streaming, invite him to join, most will probably thank no anyway, then you can have an "educational" content for your viewers and talk about what you are going to do. And when the opponent likes to join have a differnet kind of conversation, more like on TT.
And i think BB is not comparable to RTS, MOBA, team FPS etc.games. where I absolutley understand that the opponent being in the stream would bring massive problems, because of hidden information, that is not a part of bloodbowl (unless you use special play cards).

ArrestedDevelopment

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 22:05

moph wrote:

I think I did understand your point. But I made an argument that it doesn't have to be this way.
I watched a lot of videos of BB2 streams and my impression was that most of them were more entertainig communitiy banter than of educational value (those were often replays).
I think its possible to have both: tell your opppnent you are streaming, invite him to join, most will probably thank no anyway, then you can have an "educational" content for your viewers and talk about what you are going to do. And when the opponent likes to join have a differnet kind of conversation, more like on TT.
And i think BB is not comparable to RTS, MOBA, team FPS etc.games. where I absolutley understand that the opponent being in the stream would bring massive problems, because of hidden information, that is not a part of bloodbowl (unless you use special play cards).

We may favour different streams.

Certainly when I did briefly stream my own games once upon a while ago, I went through exactly my thought processes and aims for drives. Were an opponent to have requested to join I would have had to sit in absolute silence for the entire game as I had nothing else to say and wasn't really interested in idle chit-chat with the stream (both due to being poor at keeping up with it, and also due to wishing a dry stream as a choice).

But more likely I'd just end my stream.

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RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: May 28, 2023 - 22:11

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

I've already said the FUMBBL rules allow you to do just this. I'm merely saying I think placing a requirement on the streamer to tell you they are streaming their match goes a step beyond and simply makes it very likely many people either reduce the quality of their stream or cease to stream FUMBBL games. Which is completely against what we want - publicity for the site with the hope of growth.

Sooner or later people will start watching FUMBBL on TwitchTV often and often and this for sure will lead to discover more channels... The more FUMBBL will become popular on TwitchTV more people will watch. The more channel will become popular

So it is possible that - even w/o placing a requirement on the streamer to tell you they are streaming their match - a Stremaer will have his channel watched by his opponent on Twitch TV

we cannot do anything on this. Is a chicken and egg problem