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RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2023 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I launch this forum as a collection of mistakes as lessons learned for future.
I hope will be of help to those (like me) who keep making the same mistakes despites hundreds of games played. The idea is not only to understand the mistake but also what would have been the best move in that particular turn. because there is nothing better to learn than to admit his own mistakes but also to understand what would have been the best move at that moment.

If I post it on the forum it is because I hope it will be useful for other coaches as well as I hope experienced coaches can have their say (if they want to)

So let's start:

GAME 1)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
this is the first example I will post
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=4502718
recent match which was a total disaster for me.

Of course when you lose or win this also depends very much on how your opponent plays. In this case I had the privilege of playing this match against a very experienced vampire coach whom I also thank for the advices he gave me during the match. In this case I couldn't really find any mistakes in the vampire coach's game, who didn't miss a comma. His set up positioning was always correct, he knew how to make the most of the Blitz! and even if you might think that certain moves were lucky I think he rarely had to make a 4+, very often a series of 2+ and 3+ which with many rerolls are not difficult. So : maximum exploitation of vampire skills, good positional sense, perfect tactical execution, scoring as soon as possible (with vamps is importants) well: grats Smile.

Final remark: I am spitefully self-critical and able to apologize and do not consider myself a good player so I do not pretend to lecture anybody and clearly the column 'what is the best move' is my interpretation (which could be wrong)
ciao!

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_________________
To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2023 - 17:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I like the idea of this
I think starting with Vamps is tricky because their gameplay can be so complex - they have so many ways to approach any situation that firstly, it's hard to predict what they're gonna do and therefore defend against it, and secondly, it makes this type of analysis complicated as well
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2023 - 18:08 Reply with quote Back to top

In your second example, by doing action 1 first (the block) don't you stop action 2 unless you get a knockdown. Feels like they should be the other way round
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2023 - 21:45 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:
In your second example, by doing action 1 first (the block) don't you stop action 2 unless you get a knockdown. Feels like they should be the other way round

you are right. btw In this situation staying too low with only three players and impossibility to cage knowing that four vampires will still be able to attack the ball-keeper and steal the ball, you might as well try to advance the ball carrier where you have more players to protect. But The situation is however deteriorated by the positional error of the previous turn: ballkeeper should be put away from the melee till some more cleaning happening. risk is not be able to score, but in this case there was the snow ball effect...

_________________
To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
Spence



Joined: Dec 05, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2023 - 10:52 Reply with quote Back to top

the move you want to make in example 1 is suicide.
you're the slower, heavier team. you want compact contact. the vamps are happy to burn turns. and delighted with a spread field.
your plan relies on getting removals with what will be an outnumbered force. which means the vamps will be able to block all your contact away and get 3-4 blocks each turn while maintaining a gaze threat to keep you deep. Meanwhile you only get the 1 blitz hit each turn and have to deal with the constant threat that they split your team to punish a somewhat tragic half-dakka.

Advance with lines instead of cages (to combat gaze). Don't worry about the sack, but make sure recovery is in your favour and there's a heavy positional cost + revenge blocks attached to any gaze sack attempt. Use the sideline to help defend recovery space - similar to the CRP non-sh Undead vs Strip dancers matchup. And the extra men to control central space/tag pieces.

A typical set would be something like ball carrier on c or d. unbased or single based (preferably at d or e) 4x front line b,c,d,e. blitzer on one of b,c,d (behind BC) then the remaining pieces fighting for tags and space simultaneously in the middle (in a solid line if allowed). the central space both gives you somewhere to move and protects recovery.

Some of this is generic. A sack should only be prevented if the cost of doing so is less than the cost of allowing it. The sidelines provide an additional defensive resource. Who's the Beatdown?

Thinking in lines is more vamp-specific and should help you a lot in your matchups versus vamps.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2023 - 13:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Spence wrote:
the move you want to make in example 1 is suicide.
you're the slower, heavier team. you want compact contact.


Thank you Spence for the valuable suggestions. In effect i am terrified by sack when I play dwarf, as if i lost the ball I am in big troubles, and btw no Apo with this team which has been developed to have minimum TV so i have tendency to hyper protect runner at least at the beginning of the game.
Actually in the reality of the game I did not keep runner back but got up.
If you watch the replay I tried to move runner closer to the team but I couldn't cage him right aways on turn 2 and with 4 gaze vampires he was very aggressive and sacked me after just 2 turns
I am not sure to understand when you speak of a, b, c... Do you mean defense by lines and not cage something like this?
----------------

ssBssBssBssB
ZsBssBssBssBsZ
sssssRk
sssssR
-----------------

s: space
B: Blocker
Rk: runner with the ball
R: Runner
Z : blitzer
still he can gaze the back runner with MA8 and with 2 rush he can block the Rk runner with vamps (probably need 2 dodge 2+) ...

_________________
To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
Harpick



Joined: Oct 07, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2023 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I aggree with Spencer.

You can also
sBBsBBsBBsB
sssRRkssZ
ssssssZ

On the left is the side line. This way he must try 3+ hypnogaze if he want to go front, and would only have 1D on the ball carrier. On the side he should be light on movement

Clearly letting your ball carrier far behind is the worst possible decision. It's easy with one or two gaze to go on the other side of your line of scrimmage, and you won't be able to put your ball carrier in safety when they do. It's a good option with elves since they have more mobility, throwers and catchers.
Spence



Joined: Dec 05, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2023 - 19:38 Reply with quote Back to top

RDaneel wrote:

I am not sure to understand when you speak of a, b, c...


a,b,c,d are the columns in the left wide zone (rows on top if you play sideways). The typical set I described is just an example of what I'd be aiming for to end the stabilisation phase and start the advancing phase.
Solid lines (pieces touching each other in a row) versus vamps where possible. We typically two-gap pieces as it's the most efficient way to protect space while maximising the space we control. That doesn't work versus gaze. So we prefer solid lines or pairs of buddies with a gap as Harpick shows. You'll often need the extra free piece you get from that single gap to advance - then once you've advanced use a solid screen on the critical side to stabilise the new position. Having your own pieces touching is not only safer, but also increases the cost of the vamps gaze attempts.
Interesting that you start the screenshots from T2 as I glanced at the replay and thought a lot of your issues stemmed from the T1 LoS follows that left the holes. The narrow setup initially looks a little dubious too.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2023 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Spence wrote:

Interesting that you start the screenshots from T2 as I glanced at the replay and thought a lot of your issues stemmed from the T1 LoS follows that left the holes. The narrow setup initially looks a little dubious too.


you are right! Also the set up at kick off in the LoS and the decision to follow up in T1 have been questionable is a little weak now that I think about it... maybe it's a smudge but then it contributed to the snowball->avalanche effect of Turn 2 and 3... a series of small errors... which lead to a disaster.

_________________
To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 26, 2023 - 19:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Game 2
+++++++++++++++++++++

Another example of some classic error; speaking with my opponent at the end of the match we were thinking this was a classic example of "Lessons Learned", so here we are,
I play Necro vs Elf
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=4503685


1st mistake: I didn't watch the clock when I was playing I would say BIG mistake(decisive) , 7/6 so is penultimate turn I did not put anybody in possibility to score even with rush.

But there is still a small chance of a pushchain in turn 8. And here is the 2nd mistake
I won't draw it for you because it's ridiculous (*) if you want to have a laugh load the replay and go to round 8/7 of the second half.

Instead let's talk about how it should have been done:So at this point what comes to mind now looking the replay is to blitz at 2+ with the wraith (3) after had moved the golem (1) and a zombie to complete the cage (2) and the wolf is stationary.
After the blitz-pushchain (3) the wolf moves and takes the place (4) of the golem forward to the left and you can re-block the elf with a zombie (5).
Then is relatively easy you get an elf out of the way by blocking with Golem and then pray because you still need a 4+ (with the dodge) and a 2+.
Having 3 rerolls available would you have found a better sequence?
ciao!
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(*) to explain the mental mechanism of the wrong move in turn 8 which may seem (indeed is) crazy the reason is that simply my brain had 'fixed' that I had to do the pushchain with the wolf but the wolf itself was a column of the pushchain so could NOT be moved either to block or to blitz. After 3 minutes of thinking (because I had guessed it was going to go wrong) out of time pressure I moved and . well the result is worthy of a Benny Hill sequence Very Happy

_________________
To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2023 - 11:41 Reply with quote Back to top

GAME 3 (Super League)
==================================================
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=4505320
====================================================
Here another big mistake of bad position costs Orc probably the victory.
We are in turn 6/7 1st half second drive: orc has to move, they have 1 RR , Imperial Nobility (IN) scored in their attacking drive relatively fast (in turn 6) and Orcs have 3 turns to score and then to play second half their attack drive.
Situation is the one in Picture 1. A double skull in block 1 waste the RR but no turnover. then BuB (2) moves so we can surf the lineman with Blitzer(3) who after blitz can position himself in protection line. Also Lineman (4) can be positioned in protection, then (5) handover (pray no RR): lucky, everything goes well and goblin on the border.
Finally the situation is the one in picture 2: Seems relatively quite for Orcs but there are TWO BIG mistakes: are you able to see ? Before go to picture 3 and picture 4 think little bit and then we go below...

PICTURE 1
Image

Situation in turn 7/7 is the following (this is now the turn of IN)

PICTURE 2
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The criticism, imo , are at least two
Orc Tackler (triangle red with !) is the weak point as can be blocked with 1 Dice. Ok is unlikely a POW or a POW! but IN has a reroll in fact he did. But even removed the position of Lino and Goblin is wrong ad you can see that once the Orc Tackler removed the IN require only a dodge 3+ and rush 2+ to surf the goblin. So position of goblin is wrong and position of Orc lino is wrong they should have put in different position like in picture 3

PICTURE 3
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With all these criticism and 1 RR available IN can try the surf and this is what happened (PICTURE 4)

PICTURE 4
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So congratulation to the IN coach who has "seen" this possibility, well tempted and well played!!
And shame to Orc's coach (me) who did not see the danger.

Lessons learned is :
In case your opponent can surf the ball carrier (even doing 3+ 4+), and you have a couple of advanced players who can score it is better to always put the ball carrier two squares from the edge (to avoid surfing and the ball going out), and in case things goes wrong (i.e. ball carrier powed but only prone) you can always try in the turn after a desperate action to pick up and throw with the victory pass to the advanced player near the TD line. In the case of surfing very often then the ball is not catchable. If plays against stunty teams or elves this is even more critical (if your ball carrier does not have side step).

_________________
To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post 18 Posted: Dec 10, 2023 - 22:56 Reply with quote Back to top

GAME 4 (RRR)
==================================================
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4507204
===================================================

This time it's not about a specific action but about a series of mistakes I made with the Orcs especially in the first half against OWA played by a very expert coach in this RRR match: if you don't want to watch the whole replay the match report is quite comprehensive.

Lesson Learned is:
Orcs are bash team don't have to be too shy and be afraid of a Tree. At the end of the 1st half (thanks also to the good disposition of opponent player) Orcs did only 13 blocks/blitz vs 20, they suffered 3 CAS despite they had 2 player MB (so clearly 2MB not exploited as OWA did on the other side). This Shyness of the Orc also caused them to advance very slow this compromised the offensive drive.


This match is also an example that when you play BloodBowl you should never concede even if you have 50% of the team in the Infirmary (or directly in the graveyard) : the second half is an example of this (even if the Orcs had a goblin walker that did everything more).

Kudos to Storr by the way, he "terminated" my team (if by chance the OT ended in a won by penalties - that was what I was aiming for with so few players- I don't know how I would have played the next one with 5 Loners! Very Happy

_________________
To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
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