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What's stopping Necros winning a major?

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King_Ghidra

Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 12:01

There are a good few 'forlorn' races out there. Some of them have had big community pushes for Major success and got pretty close (Humans, Lizardmen). Necros are one of the most popular team types on the site, and they seem successful at all tv ranges, but they've had extremely limited progression in Majors (I counted 1 or 2 QF's in the last few years).

What's holding Necros back I wonder?

The pluses:
- Wolves are amazing, and Flesh Golems and Wights are as good as any other meatshields and mobile tackle-pombers
- Cheap supporting cast does not inflate tv
- Regen is arguably better than apo at keeping key players active through a tourney
- Necro stars are good. 240 in inducements nets you another str4 wolf, 220 gets you a str4 block strip baller

The minuses:
- No regen on Ghouls and no apo means Necro's natural ball-carrier is extremely vulnerable to attrition over the course of a major
- Zombies and Golems are slow and easily tied up
- no natural Sure Hands or ag4

Overall, Necro's seem to naturally fit the CRP model of 4-6 uber players supported by unskilled fodder. I don't see why a 18-1900-odd TV necro team shouldn't be able to go deep in a major

The key question here for Major strategy seems to be the Ghouls. A nicely developed Ghoul can be a great ball carrier and/or ball stripper, but with no regen or apo and av7, they tend to get targetted and crippled/killed. That leaves a gaping hole in the strategy.

I think the above (relatively) low-tv approach, with no ghouls and one wolf as a designated ball carrier, could be a great tactic for a sustainable major-challenging build. It leaves a lot resting on a good ball carrier wolf and/or wight, but avoids the pitfall of punching above their weight with vulnerable tv-inflating players.

I know some people love Ghouls so I'm sure they will disagree, but the above is motivated by what I've seen speccing many CRP Majors.

Viable? Or is the problem not a build issue but something else? Do Necros just need more players entering Majors? Or do they need some fundamental roster change to hit the highest of heights?

DaCoach

Joined: Jul 22, 2004

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 12:06

Nice topic. Having brought my ranked necros to majors multible times with little luck, it will be interesting to follow. Can't contribute more now (work)

ErobererZim

Joined: Dec 19, 2009

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 12:36

The Dices^^. no there need a LOOT of good Skillrolls on there Players, a few with +STR and Guard, Zombs. and 1-2realy awesome Wolfs, and there is the problem. Fast Teams run away and can fokus your Wolfs from the Pitch and without them, is it pretty hard to play. U have not the Option like Chaos, Nurgle, Orcs, Setting a few High Str. Players on the Pitch with a couble of Guards. For that needs Necs GREAT skillrolls and great luck. Its realy hard to handle this only with an realy Great Wolf (ClawPOMB) or +STR (with MB). The Problem is there be squischi like Elfs, but mobile like Dorfs (Wolfs be there Outstanding). On Mayors u have to play at most vs. GREAT ElfTeams with 1-2-3 Great Impressive Players, the STR5 WD etc. VS Mices, 2 Realy Hard Hitting Stormvermins, 1 Str.5 Wall, and 4 of the best Players in my mind of the Game with the GRs. there be to fast and when u cant well clean up the pitch from the AG teams, there run away and than u play only with your wolfes(Ghouls). And Bashers, who have the more STR and Guard on the pitch as u, and/or the harder hitter as u. Vs both of the Terms (AG-Bashers) u need luck on fouling and good hits with your Dudes.

I have 2 Good NecTeams, I think I will play with One the next or with my (realy awesome) Undeads, but we have here on Ranked a few pretty pretty good Nec Teams, with 2Wolfes with +Str+MB and a lot of good Skills, but there dont play Mayors and when than with other Teams.

Daudy

Joined: Aug 28, 2008

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 12:52

I am actually of the opinion they can get quite bloaty quite quickly (despite cheap zombies). If you think about it, they have 8 positionals of 70-120k each. Add to that zombies being reasonably limited in what they can do, they get expensive pretty quickly with skills. Zombies get found out pretty quickly at higher tvs also. I think skeletons would be better but they're not an option for necros.

I also think wolves only really get very good with a couple of doubles and/or stats. You can't predict these, and obviously you'd prefer to get them earlier.

huff

Joined: Dec 19, 2009

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 13:15

The lack of AG hurts them. With only 6 3ag players if you take both Ghouls. I also rarely see Necro teams with Fleshies that have developed with the rest of the team. This is prolly because they so often mark opposing players and coaches preferring to get TDs on the wolves for development. We all know the pain of relying on cas for development with non-mb players.

I do think it is quite weird that they are forlorn. They are a very good team at all TV ranges and make good use of being down 100-200k when it arises.

ahalfling

Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 21:35

To me, and I know I'm repeating some points here, it just seems like the shortage of good players is a problem. You have two wolves, two ghouls and two wights. Everyone else is only good for the line. If the opponent knocks out a couple of your positionals -- this is quite easy to do with ghouls in particular, and even werewolves tend to get caught out and double-teamed due to their speed and frenzy -- it really starts to become limiting. Moreover, it tends to get those players (particularly the ghouls) injured, inhibiting development.

And yeah, zombies are "unskilled fodder". But they're not rookie chaos beastmen, who can run six squares, make a ST4 blitz, and pick up the occasional touchdown. They're not rookie Dwarf Longbeards, who start out as competent blockers. They are the opposite of elves. It is unlikely you will ever develop your corps of zombies to the point where they can even hold the line, because the only way they ever get SPPs is from MVPs or (very rare) casualties. And they certainly can't cross the field to provide support on a play happening away from the scrum. Against fast teams, you're playing 6-on-11. And while flesh golems have some obvious advantages over the humble zombie, they're still no more versatile or equipped to develop than, say, a black orc is.

That much having been said, traditional undead teams have many of these same problems, and they seem to manage okay. So it might just be a lack of player volume?

pythrr

Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 21:41

thye fact everyone hates werewofls

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Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 22:19

I believe Necro's are firmly worse than Undead; and I believe Undead have problems with majors.

To start, why almost all forlorn teams have problems with majors (a few, like vampire and slaan, do have agi 4, but they have their own huge and personal problems):

First: They do not have agi 4. This makes it very hard for them to build a ball sacker who is significantly better than a wight with tackle. This means they cannot do the crazy plays that you see with elves and slaan, and so defensive touchdowns against solid coaches are very difficult.
Second: They do not have clawpomb. This makes it very hard for them to reliably clear enough opposition to grind out a 2-1 win against solid coaches (orcs and dorfs both make very good cases for almost being able to do this).

Undead and Necro specifically:
Lack of Raw Stats:
Majors are generally high TV affairs. That's why they are major. During a major, you can expect any team to have gotten most of the regular skills it could possibly want; and probably several doubles and stats. For winners of Majors, they almost always have multiple stat freaks as well.
This means that stats are the rarity in a major, and so teams that start with more stats do better in majors. And both Undead and Necro suffer largely from this. Elves beat them entirely on the agi scale; and every single clawpomb team beats them on the strength scale. Similarly orcs. The only major winners that don't beat them are dwarves, and they have their own huge personal advantages (namely, skink one turners Razz

).

For Necro, you have 2 S4 players, and 4 players with guard access (1 of which often doesn't take guard in order to guarantee you a dedicated killer). This means any true strength team (including dwarves) always has the strength advantage. And these teams, when entering a major, are normally also prepared to deal with high elves - who are both faster, and more agile than necro. So, against strength teams, necro play like high elves, who have far more durability; but who rely on a very small number of players, that the strength teams can simply target and pulverize. The necro can certainly hit back much harder than high elves, but, the pure strength team is still going to (generally) win the bash war against necro.

On the other hand, Necro only have 2 MA 8 players, and 0 agi 4 players. This means, against elves, they have to play like a bash team.. who doesn't do as much damage as the pure strength teams. And elves are (in majors) generally prepared to deal with the damage a true basher can dish out. So to an elven coach, a necromantic team is either a very slow skaven team, or a very fast nurgle team (who don't have tentacles), neither of which is a very flattering description.

Now obviously a necromantic team is not actually quite like any of the teams I have likened it too - but without a cage buster, nor the strength to truly protect against cage busters, I don't feel they can truly compete with the pure teams in a majors environment. (Which is also why I firmly want all legendary/super star coaches to start playing forlorn races, because I want to be proven wrong!)

Sp00keh

Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 22:22

they do get bloaty i think
my team's got 11x players, (all positionals minus 1 ghoul) 3x RR, 2x double skills, 12x normal skills, 1x +agi, and 9x FF and they're at 1510 TV

and they do require good rolls, you'd want a super pair of wolves to run into a tournament.
but then u can stay low TV while u skill->fire wolves searching after good rolls, and they're still strong at low TV so its not painful to do, tho you don't really build cash firing expensive players frequently

wights are the only easy access to mighty blow so they're likely to be stuck into a scrum, and so can't really be counted on often to do anything like carry the ball

ghouls are not great for it either, you want to score with wolves not ghouls while you build a team, (so i just use 1x ghoul with block to keep it cheap...
they dont really get value from many more further skills in box play (SH/SS)...)
fortunately he's quick to re-skill 2x TDs if you need a new one so you could even hopefully do this during a tournament if you had to
this means they can only have 3-4 guys who are suited and available for scoring, and if they go down it gets much harder to win

i think Undead having access to 4 ghouls means in tournament mode they're much more likely to have deep redundancy in ball carrying. necro don't have the redundancy in ball carrying, its same tier as CD/nurg

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jul 09, 2013 - 22:31

** Milfords back page editorial on this subject**

IMO as it relates to Majors the Necros suffer 4 BIG TIME issues.

In KO tournaments the #1 thing that kills teams is lack of ball handling players. #1A being the dice turning on you and running you out of the tourney, but that applies to all teams not just Necro.

Turnovers in KO tournaments are really huge. In fact I would propose that around 50% of matches in majors if you look at the losing side..they had a ball handling turnover at some point in the match, failed pickup of the ball or failed catch of handoff or pass.

Picking up the ball turnovers because you cannot pick up the ball on a 2+ with a skill reroll on your ball carrier is big. Being able to pick up the ball on a 1/36 fail chance is so huge I cannot state how big it is in a KO tourney. Also now because of the AG3 passing is dicey. Catch the ball or catching the handoff turn into a close your eyes and hope the 1/9 fail does not happen.

Now here is why this is so important to Necro teams.

#1: Necro are AG3 on their 6 positional. What do you do with the +AG to get that coveted AG4? Zombies are out, TV waste, same goes for the Golems. Do you put it on a Wolf? Sure he is a great ball carrier. BUT now on offense with the ball in his hand he is out of the mix for offensive operation. Do you use your ball carrier wolf as the dedicated blitzer? Limit your blitz actions to just you ball carrier?

Do you put +AG on the wights? Sure they can run with the ball and so forth. But just like the wolf you lose one of your offensive players with S access to hidding with the ball in a cage.

Ghoul is obviosly the best place to have +AG. BUT you only have 2 of them. It might take you 50 matches and 25 ghoul skill up rolls to roll the magical +AG. And then once you fist pump your excitment you then dread fielding him because he is so easily taken off the pitch and his odds of SI-perms and RIP are allmost statistically speaking as bad as a stunty, no regen, no apoth.

A 4AG wolf is a great ball carrier. But do you then dump your ghouls to save TV? The wolf just took their job. But by dumping your ghouls to save TV you now only have 4 postional players who can handle the ball with AG3 or higher.

Bottom line..you only have 6 players MAX who can take +AG and it not be a waste. But you have no control over when and who will get the +AG.

#2 AG3/2 is a killer when the majority of the team is MV 6 or less. You cannot dodge out on reliable odds, meaning 2 or 3 in a turn. Inless you dont mind burning team rerolls. Double to take dodge? why would you do that on the AG2 players that dominate the roster? This lack of reliable dodge out coupled with low MV hurts you bad on the defense. Spreading out the defense to compensate then opens up your 6 main postional players to blitz moves and positioning problems across the front of your defense. Life was so much easier when SF allowed free dodge out attempts. It is subtle but Necro teams counted on those 2 free golem dodge outs on defense.

#3 TV is big for necro in KO tournaments. They need some cash to hire a star player to bump them up to 7 viable postional players or 6 if you run with just your one 4ag ghoul. That is where the zombies kill you. Skill up on zombies all of a sudden start catching up to you when playing the TV min tactic. Does a necro team really want 7 zombies with block and 2 of those zombies with a second skill? Now all of a sudden that is a +180 TV, even more if you take +STAT or doubles.. Which goes against the TV min golden rule of 5 ubers with chumps coupled with the desire to get some inducement money.

#4 Zombies...they stink litterally and on the pitch as players. They are slow, putrid slow. And their stat line is sub par. When they get knocked down they are basically relegated to stand up and end turn. That is no bueno when trying to form up your defense against a solid push from the other team. You cant skill them up if you want to control the TV to a level you feel you can get inducement money. So you are hamstrung by these rotting corpses who do allmost nothing to help out the cause besides just getting blocked and being road blocks.

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