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Poll
Is BB20 really a problem?
Yes.
20%
 20%  [ 15 ]
I miss CLAWPOMB.
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Dwarfs still like it.
18%
 18%  [ 14 ]
Game should use 1d8 instead of 1d6.
6%
 6%  [ 5 ]
I've left fumbbl since the update and didn't even read this.
12%
 12%  [ 9 ]
Throw Team Mate is bugged.
5%
 5%  [ 4 ]
I will always find a way to minmax!
9%
 9%  [ 7 ]
Pie.
24%
 24%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 75


mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post 8 Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 10:38 Reply with quote Back to top

HAIL NUFFLE and welcome g̶i̶t̶s̶ coaches to the:

(inofficial) FUMBBl2020 Discussion and Complaints Thread

"New" Blood Bowl rules are a thing now. And an ongoing series of never ending new additions and FAQs.
FUMBBL creators and supporters have been busy updating the client accordingly.

While FUMBBL offers a lot of options for a personalized experience in [L]-

including but not only options for:
the usage of the old ruleset, custom teams, season length or no season, some skill related options (we love the Sneaky Git option to sneak into the KO box when banned. So Sneaky!), the selection of generally available skills and which skill progression to use, Spiked Balls (!) and much more
! It's great!


- the main dish for many coaches are the open play environments. This is where you get your quick bb fix!

Gamefinder 2.0 has just been released, Black Box is currently on hold, these will most likely always adhere to the currently most official rules.

Including the sword of Damocles. Which seems to be for many the concept of Seasons, which will one day force coaches to redraft teams after a certain amount of played games. It's not yet live, but we can already hear the complaints. The fear and despair. In dedicated blog posts, but also in every other thread on this forum. It's no use to ignore what is persistent. Gits gotta say what they gotta say.

So please vent. LET IT OUT! SHOUT IT OUT! But maybe focus your energy on this thread. What do you hate so much about BB20 and especially FUMBBL20?

Or is there anything you thought you would hate, but then actually liked?

How much is this only blissful nostalgia?
Or is everything crap now?
Feel free to repeat yourself in case you think others didn't get your point. Who knows, maybe shared hate can even be the beginning of great friendships?

I hope you have a decent day.

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Last edited by mekutata on Jun 15, 2022 - 12:46; edited 2 times in total
Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 12:14 Reply with quote Back to top

I started playing BB in 1995. Stopped circa 2003.
When I came back to BB in 2020, I discovered then the.... 2016 ruleset.
And I was enthousiastic : BB was still the game I always knew, but with new and/or better things. Great!

"A few minutes" later, the 2020 ruleset landed.
And I was... I don't know.
The infamous new caracteristic (Pass), the useless skills......

I still enjoy BB.
I do.
Even if it's clearly a less good game than 4 years ago. A new game made by people who do NOT understand the game they sell....

Jervis Johnson will be missed.

PS: my vote went to "Dwarves still like it". I would add "even more than ever", since all the AGI rosters took a serious hit due to the new Pass attrribute.
Dwarves will probably be over-represented in the box, besides their Chorfs cousins.
How cool.
razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 12:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I firmly believe BB2020 is a transition edition. Something everyone can vent their spleen at. The sacrificial goat we all look back at and say, "I remember BB2020... and I played BB2020. You think your BB2043 is bad? You ain't seen nothin' kiddo."

And then BB2023 or BB2024 will come out, and require we either rebuy all our teams with hex shaped bases or rebase all our old teams on new GW branded bases with alternately a small 'ȣ' or 'ȹ' or 'Ɏ' on the sides depending on some new rule or another. Passing will only work if you get the new custom Forgeworld thrower figures as an add-on to your team, and players who subscribe to the GW's premium player registry (for a mere 2£/player/month) will be exempted from season rehire costs.

And a quarter of the coaches will say, "Hallelujah! At least we got past that BB2020 nonsense."
And a quarter of the coaches will gripe and complain about the new rules, and throw dice around and foul in T16.
And a quarter of the coaches will continue to drink their beers, belch loudly, and attempt to nod wisely while trying not to fall off their stools.
And a quarter of the coaches will be the only ones to actually read the rules and pray BB2027 is better...
And three will continue eating their pie and laugh between bites.

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Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 12:51 Reply with quote Back to top

I started BB around 1991 or so dropped out someplace late 90s. Found BB1 on the iPad around 2012 or so and enjoyed sporadic games against AI and rare online games. BB16 brought me back to loving BB ran multiple local leagues and tournaments over the next few years until corona (ran one since). Started with BB2 on the PC around 2017 to game with friends around the US. Came to FUMBBL in November 2021 because of the Khorne release and Corona spiking locally meant this site was really the way I could scratch that Khorne itch.

I stayed because FUMBBL is the only way to get BB 2020 games online (and it's a wonderful community of players overall.) BB2020 has been fine in my book I enjoy it just as much as BB16. If BB2020 hadn’t happened I would still be playing BB2 online.

Of note the main “Black Box equivalent” in BB2 has in built in seasons with forced team restarts.


Last edited by Garion26 on Jun 15, 2022 - 18:57; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 13:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Now, I like a good whinge/whine/moan as much as the next coach (as you well know). Twisted Evil

But compared to the good old CPOMB threads, this **** is weak.

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[SL16] Stunty Cup - Old Rules (2016) - NO TV limit! - July 2nd
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 14:36
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

To me, the new edition is fundamentally the same as before. It's still the same game with a few tweaks to the meta.

While I wouldn't say I hate anything about the new edition, there is one primary thing that I find disappointing: Passing.

I'm not against the separation of passing as a stat. In fact, I think it's a great idea. The problem is that GW seems to have intended to make passing better and at the same time restrict passing to key players. In theory, this is all good and I 100% support the idea.

The problem, though, is that they restricted passing to key players and made passing objectively worse. The combination of Wildly Inaccurate being introduced in a completely insane manner and the watering down of passing skills, you need to "invest" way too much TV to have a reasonable passer on the team (and even then, it's only short range passing that's feasible). The absolute hard cap of a pass being 83% as effective as a hand-off, even with an absolutely legendary thrower is unfortunate, especially when you have the additional risk of a wildly inaccurate pass if you throw with negative modifiers applied.

Passing wasn't great before this and a large portion of passes were made for SPP farming purposes. It didn't need the nerf it got, and if you are to believe some of the stuff GW themselves wrote they believed (believe? who knows..) passing was better with the 2020 ruleset.

This, to me, is the most critically problematic issue with bb2020 in general. Yes, there are a bunch of other minor things that can be attributed to simply not spending enough time writing and structuring the rules (nonsensical season limits, unclear terminology and incomplete keywording, etc) but I can understand the commercial reasons for all that being the way it is. The core change with the introduction of the passing change doesn't get that free ride; it's a fundamental problem with the system that, to me, is the core change with this edition.

I want to believe what razmus voiced earlier in the thread; that BB2020 is a transition edition. I hope it is, and have said so many times since I got my hands on the rules. I hope BB2020 is enough of a success that GW feels it's worth spending the resources on proper rules writers being given time to finish what they started with BB2020. I hope they don't put BB back on the "slow burn" it was for far too long and only make low-effort changes to the game.

I guess we'll find out.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 14:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Separating Passing from Agility was good, I agree. The problem is that they didn't make a good Passing system to complete their intent. As the Passing works now, there are some paradoxical situations where Orcs making GFIs and Hand Off can relatively easily move the ball, not as hard as the intent of the rules. They should have made a different mechanic to work out pass (I suggested a D8 but other alternatives would have been possible, such as 2d6 like in 2nd edition or a D10), discount the Agility stat (Elves are a bit overpriced now, because Agility is not used to throw anymore), make GFIs incrementally harder (this way Passing would have been more appealing than make a bunch of GFIs + Hand Off). GFI 2+ and 3+ , for example, instead of 2+, 2+.

Officious Ref is harsh too (after a while you get DF and if your team has good win rate you tend to win the roll, but the early games are a lottery) but it can be potentially gamebreaking the odd game where a key player is removed.

Moles under the pitch is bad too. The coach getting the Prayer is supposed to receive a help, not an obstacle. Who gets the Prayer should not be affected.

+MA is underpriced and quite easily obtainable (and that is another step towards running game and not passing and a help to bash teams, which tend to have slow ball carriers).

Also, you can get +2 MA but you can't get +2 AG. This is bad for Elves, again.
Stats should have been capped at max +1 stat boost (with MA 9 cap, still).
Elves are weaker now, they should have got S access on Blitzers/Wardancers to make up for the AG and passing nerf.

Multiple rr dumbs down the game. You can perfectly stall as Elves vs Orcs and they can score with TTM thanks to it (or doing other stunts, such as passing, handing off and dodging to score).

Some Star Players are ridiculousy cheap, such as Bomber (and this is another boost to Orcs, who already have been blessed by MA 5 Big Uns in this edition).

Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs are super appealing due to Season Re-Draft, and they have underpriced Tackle spam (which is bad for Elves, again).

Wizard is too cheap, he should cost 200,000, especially considering that now the Inducements are "bridge the TV gap" with your own gold, rather than "buy the whole thing with your own gold".
Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 16:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Good sum up from both Christer and MattDakka about the main 2020 issue(s).

They nailed it.
SideshowBob



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 16:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Im just here to complain about Morg and MB+2 again.
Bye
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 17:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Humans pass on a 2+ and chaos based teams are stuck near 1300 TV. Dwarfs can be fouled easier than ever. Sigmar has landed. Good times.

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awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 17:22 Reply with quote Back to top

well, objectively, being able to use more than 1RR per turn and the recovery from injuries are pretty good.
for those times when you're at turn 7 with 3RR left, you can squeeze that extra juice and turn the events.

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MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 17:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm here to mention that I didn't intend to minmax, but it turns out that if you redraft a developed team at 15 games and just keep the best players, reset the rest, it feels like you've minmaxed by accident. As opposed to farming a team for 70 games without redraft until you have some utter monstrosities. So, er... pie?

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, Passing is a weird one. When it was revealed to become a separate stat I kinda liked the idea fluffwise. Afterall Quarterbacks are rather special kind of players. But then they threw the ball backwards..

Multiple RRs per turn is fine imo. Allows some crazy turns. Probably too cheap for some races?

But can't agree more about Moles under the Pitch. I feel in general the Prayers are a bit random and lack consistency. Also having to play them on the first drive makes them worse than cards in previous editions. I liked the old system for overspending on inducements moar (give opponent money).

But please, don't hold back. So far everyone has been quite civilized.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 19:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I hate the pricing of stars; for me, development is a core part of blood bowl and right now, some stars are priced so cheaply that it is better to fire developed players in order to get a star that is even better. Stars should always be more expensive than a similarly developed player specifically to avoid this.

And a star that can do something no player can be developed into (a gutter runner on chaos dwarves, or MB+2) should be very expensive, and not normally seen.

I realize why (from a company's selling-model point of view) this occurs, but I think it's terrible for the game.
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2022 - 19:24 Reply with quote Back to top

The thing with Star Costing is presumably it's intrinsically linked with redraft budgets if the premise of this ruleset was to reinforce league play.

If you redraft every 6-8 games as sort of implied in the rulebook, development will be very stunted and TV will stay low. Therefore TV gaps will typically be small. To that end stars had to be cheaper to ever have a chance of featuring
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