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Techcasualty



Joined: Jan 17, 2012

Post 11 Posted: Nov 29, 2023 - 22:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Hypno gaze is so poorly written.
Start from the beginning, break down the process.
-Activate a vampire. When you activate you have to declare your action. You declare Hypnotic Gaze.
-Per the FAQ, you must nominate your target when you declare the action.
"To perform a hypnotic gaze, nominate a single standing opposition player that has not lost their tackle zone and that this player is marking."

So you have to already be basing them when you activate?

Now lets throw a wrench in.
"The player may move before performing this special action, following all of the normal movement rules." So now you activate, target someone in your tackle zone, and then can move around them? Why?

Now here's another wrench:
Foul appearance/blood lust. You activate your vampire. Declare a hypnotic gaze action. You roll Blood Lust. Fail on a 1. You now have to roll Foul Appearance because you targeted a mini. Fail on a 1. Can you move? Hypnotic Gaze says the player can move before the special action is performed, implying the move is separate from the action, foul appearance says the action is wasted. Is it just an immediate turn over if you fail your foul appearance roll with no thrall in base contact?

Blood Lust say you have the option to change your action to a move action if you fail. Do you still need to roll foul appearance?

Sigh, I miss the good ol days of LRB
"The player may use hypntoic gaze at the end of his move action on one opposing player who is in an adjacent square."
Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2023 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

So, poorly written rules aside, does it still work the way it used to? I'm assuming, relative to what you've described, that:
1. You need to be in base contact to do the gaze, and you need to nominate the target before moving, but you actually can nominate a target further away and then move to them.
2. You don't actually roll for Foul Appearance until you have moved and are about to make the gaze.

I believe blitz works the same, you nominate a target, then move, then roll FA, then block if you pass FA. I can't remember if you can move after failing FA on a blitz, but you can't move after gazing anyway so it's neither here nor there for gaze.
Nightbird



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2023 - 23:52 Reply with quote Back to top

@ Irgy, No, FA has changed & you roll for FA right after you have declared an action vs that player. If you fail FA you stay right where you are & your players action ends, but it's not a turnover. So if you fail FA you don't get to move at all. As well, if you are prone when you fail the FA roll, you stay prone!

_________________
"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2023 - 23:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Still works as it used to. Just declaring target first.

And yeah, to use it, you have to be marking the nominated player, the rule "clarifications" have just left some tenses out of place.

You do roll foul appearance when nominating the action, and that's before you move, and it wastes your move, same as blitzing does. Which is suitably annoying when you're prone, but just don't gaze or blitz the foul ones, unless you have to.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2023 - 23:59 Reply with quote Back to top

The question about a turnover is specific to failing bloodlust and then failing FA when you are not adjacent to a thrall.

I believe this is an immediate turnover, as you fail to bite a thrall at the end of your activation.

However, if you ARE next to a thrall, does failing FA also prevent you from biting the thrall (and therefore results in a turnover) or does it FIFO and so you end your activation, and then at tge end of your activation, Bloodlust allows you to bite the thrall (and therefore avoid the turnover)?
Nightbird



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 00:13 Reply with quote Back to top

"Blood Lust say you have the option to change your action to a move action if you fail. Do you still need to roll foul appearance?"

Answer: No, so long as you change your action to a move action.

-declare a hypnogaze on a player you need to move to & when you don't have a thrall based
-fail BL on 1
-knowing you have targeted an FA player & the result of failing that roll, I would think in most situations you are going to change your action to a move action here per the BL rules (If not it's a turnover.)
-FA now needs not be rolled
-move your player according to BB rules to feed your bloodlust

_________________
"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 00:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Right.

So, declare hypno gaze against target with FA.

Step1: roll, and fail bloodlust
Step1.5: decide whether to use pro or team re-roll. For this discussion, assume this still results in a failed bllodlust
Step2 (only occurs because you fail hypno gaze): option to change action to a move.

Series a:
Step3a: choose to change action to a move
Step4a: perform a move action, and end with biting a thrall or a turnover, as is is commonly understood

Series b:
Step3b: choose to continue with hypnogaze action
Step4b: roll and fail FA
Step4b.5: choose whether to use pro or team re-roll. For this discussion, assume this still results in a failed FA

Series bI (assume you are not adjacent to a thrall):
Step5bI: failed FA prevents any further movenent. Fail to bite a thrall and (among other things) turnover.

Series bII (assume you are adjacent to a thrall):
Step5bII:

Option 1: FA ends your activation. This prevents you from biting a thrall at the end of your activation. Fail to bite a thrall and (among other things) turnover.

Option 2: FA ends your activation. Failed bloodlust kicks in, allowing you to bite a thrall at the end of your activation. Bite thrall with the usual results and (among other things) no turn over.
Techcasualty



Joined: Jan 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 00:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Irgy wrote:
So, poorly written rules aside, does it still work the way it used to? I'm assuming, relative to what you've described, that:
1. You need to be in base contact to do the gaze, and you need to nominate the target before moving, but you actually can nominate a target further away and then move to them.

tussock wrote:
Still works as it used to. Just declaring target first.


Rules as written, you are both incorrect.
Page 42 Declaring actions:
Quote:
When you activate a player, you must declare the action that player will perform (and, if required, the target of that action)


Page 85, hypnotic gaze
Quote:

To perform a hypnotic gaze special action, nominate a single standing opposition player that has not lost their tackle zones and *that this player is marking"

November 2023 FAQs page 8
Quote:

Q: Does a player that declared a Hypnotic Gaze Special action have to declare the target of the Hypnotic Gaze when they are activated before they move? (p.85)
A: Yes.


As written, you may only target an opposing player that you are marking and you must declare at the start of your players activation.
Techcasualty



Joined: Jan 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 00:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Right.

So, declare hypno gaze against target with FA.

Step1: roll, and fail bloodlust
Step1.5: decide whether to use pro or team re-roll. For this discussion, assume this still results in a failed bllodlust
Step2 (only occurs because you fail hypno gaze): option to change action to a move.

Series a:
Step3a: choose to change action to a move
Step4a: perform a move action, and end with biting a thrall or a turnover, as is is commonly understood

Series b:
Step3b: choose to continue with hypnogaze action
Step4b: roll and fail FA
Step4b.5: choose whether to use pro or team re-roll. For this discussion, assume this still results in a failed FA

Series bI (assume you are not adjacent to a thrall):
Step5bI: failed FA prevents any further movenent. Fail to bite a thrall and (among other things) turnover.

Series bII (assume you are adjacent to a thrall):
Step5bII:

Option 1: FA ends your activation. This prevents you from biting a thrall at the end of your activation. Fail to bite a thrall and (among other things) turnover.

Option 2: FA ends your activation. Failed bloodlust kicks in, allowing you to bite a thrall at the end of your activation. Bite thrall with the usual results and (among other things) no turn over.


While I do not disagree with your layout of the situation, it seems like completely bullshit. Foul Appearance straight out hard counters vamps. Combine with wrestle and the fact you can't hypno gaze unless you are already basing; he team is going in the bin
CL



Joined: Oct 20, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 02:14 Reply with quote Back to top

it works like jump up block in fumbll, where if your downed and try to stand up but fail your gaze, you stay down. I think
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 04:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Techcasualty wrote:
Irgy wrote:
So, poorly written rules aside, does it still work the way it used to? I'm assuming, relative to what you've described, that:
1. You need to be in base contact to do the gaze, and you need to nominate the target before moving, but you actually can nominate a target further away and then move to them.

tussock wrote:
Still works as it used to. Just declaring target first.


Rules as written, you are both incorrect.
Page 42 Declaring actions:
Quote:
When you activate a player, you must declare the action that player will perform (and, if required, the target of that action)


Page 85, hypnotic gaze
Quote:

To perform a hypnotic gaze special action, nominate a single standing opposition player that has not lost their tackle zones and *that this player is marking"

November 2023 FAQs page 8
Quote:

Q: Does a player that declared a Hypnotic Gaze Special action have to declare the target of the Hypnotic Gaze when they are activated before they move? (p.85)
A: Yes.


As written, you may only target an opposing player that you are marking and you must declare at the start of your players activation.


This i think is the big thing with hypno gaze, which will vastly decrease its utility, compared to how vampires are currently implemented in the client.

I dont know that the team goes in the bin, as MA8 with S4 players is still unique, but bloodlust does severely cramp its style.

FA on the other hand, is only on some of the worst players in the game (nurgle notiecably improves if you dont take any FA players), and still requires snake eyes to screw vampires over. Of course snake eyes happen, but requiring snakes eyes against terrible players? Hardly reason for concern.
Techcasualty



Joined: Jan 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 05:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:

FA on the other hand, is only on some of the worst players in the game (nurgle notiecably improves if you dont take any FA players), and still requires snake eyes to screw vampires over. Of course snake eyes happen, but requiring snakes eyes against terrible players? Hardly reason for concern.


I agree FA doesn't absolutely ruin everything, but it's a straw on the camels back, it's the combination of all three (but especially the gaze fuckery) that results in "why bother playing them?"
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 07:08 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="

FA on the other hand, is only on some of the worst players in the game (nurgle notiecably improves if you dont take any FA players).[/quote]

You think Nurgle are better with no bloaters or beast only leaving four pestis and rotters?
Techcasualty



Joined: Jan 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 08:12 Reply with quote Back to top

So someone had a response that looks like it may kill this. Page 42, you *declare* your target for the hypnotic gaze action. Then hypnotic gaze states: "When you perform a hypnotic gaze special action, nominate a single standing opposition player..."

Their argument was that the declaring of a target holds no stipulations as to the potential target and it is not until you nominate a target that you must now follow the stipulations.

So additional wonkiness. Because the nomination step is during the performance of the action, it doesn't have to be your declared target.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2023 - 09:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Ignoring the Foul Appearance stuff,

The concern here is
"To perform a hypnotic gaze, nominate a single standing opposition player that has not lost their tackle zone and that this player is marking."
So you have to already be basing them when you activate?"


Which means you can't move over to someone and Gaze them, only players you're already marking..?
You might be right in RAW, I'm not gonna get into that myself. I'm not concerned though, I doubt it'll actually get played like this
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