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2013-12-19 19:07:11
21 votes, rating 4.2
21 votes, rating 4.2
House rules?
I managed to read the first 15 pages of posts in the "Addressing bash in Blackbox" thread. Please forgive me I felt my thoughs are better to write in a blog post than to the thread.
I previously stated that I prefer development of the rules. We know, there is no official interest in evolving the rules of this game. It has copyrighted by GW and since C&D letter we even saw that keeping to the official stuff has some risk.
I believe however that this game is one of the greatest ever made. Its depth and complexity competes with any great games -- Chess, Go -- as I see. It is not too complex though. And if we believe that it will pass the test of time, it will evolve, no matters if you want it or not. Currently 16 regional chess variants are listed by Wikipedia including Banqui, Shogi with many variants itself, Makruk, Senterej. Why? Because Chess has a long history. You think that the board size (19) and optimal Komi value (5.5) are constants since 25th year of inventing of Go? Sure, those games weren't copyrighted, people played them as they thougt it as best for them without any fears or barriers. Do not think that you or GW or anyone else can stop progression of BB, or if it is possible in less than 30 years form the invention, then is is not even deserves to play with. I still play though because I believe.
In our age internet is surely a region. FUMBBL is third match for "Blood Bowl" by Google: "FUMBBL is the largest online Blood Bowl league in the world and is completely free to join." We are pretty of a nation. Why are you afraid of addressing one and only one division to development for the sake of the majority of the actual community? Moreover, I see that most of us here don't think the current ruleset optimal.
What I see is mostly addressed against such a "house rule" is that we will loose our player base. Well, I intensively started playing Blackbox for some months ago. I noticed that in about half of the day we rarely have four teams activated to make the draw possible. Is there really much to loose in this division? Who sticks to CRP could still play in Ranked which is a pretty good division despite the picking there.
What to gain? As I saw from the posts, there are many of us who would like those changes. There are many of us who are frustrated getting to waste his time for more than an hour of struggle from the very start of a game by activating. You opposers should consider the importance of keeping the current playbase too. I hope there are also some experienced coaches in the TT community who would gladly play NTBB rules and I see them a potential future member. I don't thing Purplegoo and other opposers would leave the site if Blackbox would be an evolving division. And I think a community of progression would be more attractive for some people out there then another which stays in the mud. Many players are here because of they were invited by current members in the first place without ever hearing of the game before. Satisfied members invite more. And those who feel themselves taking even a tiny part in making something they like better are satisfied members.
If anyone is interested in my final proposals, you can find them HERE. I think I am done with this matter. :)
I previously stated that I prefer development of the rules. We know, there is no official interest in evolving the rules of this game. It has copyrighted by GW and since C&D letter we even saw that keeping to the official stuff has some risk.
I believe however that this game is one of the greatest ever made. Its depth and complexity competes with any great games -- Chess, Go -- as I see. It is not too complex though. And if we believe that it will pass the test of time, it will evolve, no matters if you want it or not. Currently 16 regional chess variants are listed by Wikipedia including Banqui, Shogi with many variants itself, Makruk, Senterej. Why? Because Chess has a long history. You think that the board size (19) and optimal Komi value (5.5) are constants since 25th year of inventing of Go? Sure, those games weren't copyrighted, people played them as they thougt it as best for them without any fears or barriers. Do not think that you or GW or anyone else can stop progression of BB, or if it is possible in less than 30 years form the invention, then is is not even deserves to play with. I still play though because I believe.
In our age internet is surely a region. FUMBBL is third match for "Blood Bowl" by Google: "FUMBBL is the largest online Blood Bowl league in the world and is completely free to join." We are pretty of a nation. Why are you afraid of addressing one and only one division to development for the sake of the majority of the actual community? Moreover, I see that most of us here don't think the current ruleset optimal.
What I see is mostly addressed against such a "house rule" is that we will loose our player base. Well, I intensively started playing Blackbox for some months ago. I noticed that in about half of the day we rarely have four teams activated to make the draw possible. Is there really much to loose in this division? Who sticks to CRP could still play in Ranked which is a pretty good division despite the picking there.
What to gain? As I saw from the posts, there are many of us who would like those changes. There are many of us who are frustrated getting to waste his time for more than an hour of struggle from the very start of a game by activating. You opposers should consider the importance of keeping the current playbase too. I hope there are also some experienced coaches in the TT community who would gladly play NTBB rules and I see them a potential future member. I don't thing Purplegoo and other opposers would leave the site if Blackbox would be an evolving division. And I think a community of progression would be more attractive for some people out there then another which stays in the mud. Many players are here because of they were invited by current members in the first place without ever hearing of the game before. Satisfied members invite more. And those who feel themselves taking even a tiny part in making something they like better are satisfied members.
If anyone is interested in my final proposals, you can find them HERE. I think I am done with this matter. :)
Comments
Posted by CroixFer on 2013-12-19 19:31:37
Do not know if it will evolve or not, but I am addicted to fumbbl. I am no longer addicted to Blood Bowl (nor TT or cyanide or anything else for me). Just fumbbl. I will keep playing for as long as possible, that is for sure. I am 38 but I see myself playing as a 60+ addicted ;P. Sure thing, I will play more with some fixes, today and tomorrow. That is no doubt.
Nice blog. +1
Nice blog. +1
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-12-19 20:03:48
One of the greatest games ever made *chuckles*
It's a lark, a laugh, and all that, but it is not comparable to chess or Go, which are purely games of mental skill. BB is a random blood bath. Sure, it's more varied, and you get to build your team etc, but it's not a 1 vs 1 battle of wits. It amuses me that you think it is.
It's a lark, a laugh, and all that, but it is not comparable to chess or Go, which are purely games of mental skill. BB is a random blood bath. Sure, it's more varied, and you get to build your team etc, but it's not a 1 vs 1 battle of wits. It amuses me that you think it is.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2013-12-19 20:07:58
Really? Two massive threads aren't enough, and we're blogging now too?
I don't really know why I'm the poster boy for the 'no' side of the discussion, but it seems I can't help but be associated with intelligent common sense. ;)
Kidding aside, just because I'm no reactionary does not mean I won't drift off in a hypothetical 'FUMBBL house ruled outpost' future. I think your (well written) blog is really very naive, and you'd take us down a dangerous road. In such a future, I might not have a choice if I stay or go.
Luckily. I think the scheduler tweak will keep BigC on the right side of the line. He's never dropped a big old clanger before and house ruled, whilst I'm shocked he opened the debate to begin with, he is super sensible, and I can't see an out of character slip up now.
I look forward to him ending this speculation soon, one way or another. The confusion caused (whilst a fraction of that of house ruling would provide) is pretty heavy.
I don't really know why I'm the poster boy for the 'no' side of the discussion, but it seems I can't help but be associated with intelligent common sense. ;)
Kidding aside, just because I'm no reactionary does not mean I won't drift off in a hypothetical 'FUMBBL house ruled outpost' future. I think your (well written) blog is really very naive, and you'd take us down a dangerous road. In such a future, I might not have a choice if I stay or go.
Luckily. I think the scheduler tweak will keep BigC on the right side of the line. He's never dropped a big old clanger before and house ruled, whilst I'm shocked he opened the debate to begin with, he is super sensible, and I can't see an out of character slip up now.
I look forward to him ending this speculation soon, one way or another. The confusion caused (whilst a fraction of that of house ruling would provide) is pretty heavy.
Posted by Calcium on 2013-12-19 20:26:32
Thank Nuffle your suggestions are highly unlikely to ever see the light of day. Despite the fact that I disagree with the entirety of your blog and forum suggestions, nice blog.
Posted by SzieberthAdam on 2013-12-19 20:38:33
@Chainsaw: Different games they are, true. Your mental skill here is tested by optimizing probabilities of various scenarios which can be very complex, and involving long term speculation and positioning and many other factors too. Sure, because of the randomness, the differences between players are shown in long term, not in every single game. Chess world master can beaten by computer. I don't thing that a computer AI could ever beat an experienced BB player.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2013-12-19 20:45:22
+1 to goo
Posted by pythrr on 2013-12-19 21:01:31
just house rule PO away. just that. no big change, and hardly affects TT devotees, and how many tournament TT games feature a skill like PO? (Goo, you'd have a better idea - do people take PO at all?).
also, EVOLVE ALL MEN, BECAUSE EXPLOSIONS!
also, EVOLVE ALL MEN, BECAUSE EXPLOSIONS!
Posted by xnoelx on 2013-12-19 21:18:30
You most often see PO (from my limited experience of TT tourneys) on Ogre teams.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2013-12-19 21:41:58
Depends on the rules. But this is not a blog about TT tournaments. More is the pity.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-12-19 21:56:32
The problem is very simple, the answer is not.
CRP with TV is a lousy set of rules for the perpetual environment we play in. Could we come up with a better set? Yes, sure easily.
Would this be to our advantage? That's the difficult part. Becoming house rules may work or may not work in our advantage. It depends on where you think new coaches come from and what they want. Most new coaches don't know what is best for them in reality, and that's where the problem lies.
CRP with TV is a lousy set of rules for the perpetual environment we play in. Could we come up with a better set? Yes, sure easily.
Would this be to our advantage? That's the difficult part. Becoming house rules may work or may not work in our advantage. It depends on where you think new coaches come from and what they want. Most new coaches don't know what is best for them in reality, and that's where the problem lies.
Posted by SzieberthAdam on 2013-12-19 22:16:19
What keeps most people away is the fluff IMO. Cmon man, you play with elves and orcs and call that a serious game? -- People yould say. I think if the game would be purely human based with less blood -- like an NFL boardgame -- it would be far more appealing for the people. We ended up hunting for the geeks we also are.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-12-19 22:45:22
Seriously? Is this coming from the guy who fluffed up a Khemrian only league a few years ago?
If you want to fluff out the races and just play humans, you can say goodbye to me for sure.
The fluff is EVERYTHING for me. The rules should be amended to fit the fluff.
The problem is that we've got ourselves in a situation that is unprecedented. A place that was driven by fluff, that is now dominated by competitive players. Who is now in charge of BloodBowl? That's the problem.
If you want to fluff out the races and just play humans, you can say goodbye to me for sure.
The fluff is EVERYTHING for me. The rules should be amended to fit the fluff.
The problem is that we've got ourselves in a situation that is unprecedented. A place that was driven by fluff, that is now dominated by competitive players. Who is now in charge of BloodBowl? That's the problem.
Posted by SzieberthAdam on 2013-12-19 23:15:49
Don't get me wrong, I like its fluff alot! :)
Posted by PainState on 2013-12-19 23:34:03
If fluff if EVERYTHING for you HarvestMouse...then Tomb King Setra will be expecting your invite and acceptance for season #2 of the KPL.
Posted by phil78 on 2013-12-20 00:19:04
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/12/david-sirlin-chess-poker/
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-12-20 01:36:35
I think that if you expand the realm of "Chess" and "Go" to simply include connoisseur games, BB will ultimately belong there: unable to expand because it's so very wonky/larky, but able to sustain itself because it appeals so strongly to such a clear subset of gamers. And ya, it's a great game. It's pretty random, but there are a ton of skills.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-12-20 01:38:44
Perhaps Scrabble, Magic, and Settlers of Catan are better analogies. This one has fewer adherents but the community is no less devoted or developed (more developed even than Magic or Settlers, given the non-proprietary world of minis and stuff).
Posted by The_Provocateur on 2013-12-20 01:53:19
We should change the rules to better reflect a game of Scrabble instead. Then we'd all learn new words and letters because of our vastly varying nationalities.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-12-20 01:55:07
MAKING WORDS IS GREAT BECAUSE EXPLOSIONS!
Posted by oryx on 2013-12-20 07:44:58
A well thought out post, and largely reflects my view on the situation. We should absolutely have competitive divisions with house rules, whether or not we have "standard" divisions. If the fear is that the standard divisions would be abandoned, is that such a terrible thing? the standard rules...
... aren't always that great.
... aren't always that great.
Posted by Garion on 2013-12-20 10:23:51
Yup purplegoo is correct. The two main divisions should remain as close to crp as humanly possible. What would be advantageous to the site is all the changes to the L division. L needs some loving badly imo.
Posted by albinv on 2013-12-22 18:33:09
On topic: Bloodbowl has been around for something like 20 years i think? They never managed to develop a balanced and STABLE ruleset.
Personally i tend do think this makes it obvious that there simply is no interest in that (i do not believe much in an explanation that sees the problem in organizing a heterogeneous group of people/ opinions).
While it may be appealing exposing fumbbl to develop an official ruleset, or one that is been seen as that by the vast majority of the BB community, i do not think it would be a good idea.
I think we should regard ourselves as being lucky the way GW is acting towards fumbbl. Exposing it in that way could be harmful. On a sidenote, as great as fumbbl is, i highly doubt we would succeed with it (Never let anyone tell you a handful of people couldnt change the world, its been always like this. Believe it needs a crowd of people to change things, you are being fooled).
Like others, i also think [L] could do a lot of what is suggested without having to wear that stamp.
Like others i do think your stuff is well written with good intention but overall naive and maybe even contradicting. The part about fluff is so contradicting and mindless it should hurt your own brain.
OT: On the Chess comparison (get a grip people or i'll laugh! ;)
I can only second the people saying BB is not comparable to chess or go.
It really isnt. And more important it doesnt help anyone giving people, especially newcomers, that impression.
It wont help them finding an attitude that enables them to really enjoy themselves with the game.
Much rather the difference, and face it - for a lot of people BB is a love/ hate thing much rather than a clear love thing and it doesnt help anyone (nor the game) to deny that fact!
One of the reasons is the wrong impression people give by being too enthusiastic and not critical enough. Its a minor one rather, but its the one thats been touched here so i wont get into other points (that actually have a big impact imho).
If it gets to the point were people feeling dumb and others are seen or act as if they were superior in terms of intellectual abilities because of this game, it does not only get ridiculous but actually harmful.
And actually this touches an area that makes BB indeed a bit unique imho - personally i do not know of any boardgame that arises so much strong emotions in grown up persons! Things might even get personal, guess most of us have experienced it, or one fights his emotions to not let it happen. I do think THIS is what makes BB special - and on a sidenote, its indeed no evidence that its anything near to chess.
Poker might be a more valid comparison in terms of cost-benefit reflections/ emotional situations. You invest a lot but might get little benefit in return, thus strong emotions arise (it might also keep you playing, this is a basic function in a gamers psychology). In terms of brainwork i do not know enough about poker, but i suppose it has strong similarities with BB.
Well, a much better comparison than chess obviously.
This is not a negative thing to say - if it feels so to you, than probably because you have a wrong impression of the game and invested a lot of emotions and work in this wrong impression.
Personally i tend do think this makes it obvious that there simply is no interest in that (i do not believe much in an explanation that sees the problem in organizing a heterogeneous group of people/ opinions).
While it may be appealing exposing fumbbl to develop an official ruleset, or one that is been seen as that by the vast majority of the BB community, i do not think it would be a good idea.
I think we should regard ourselves as being lucky the way GW is acting towards fumbbl. Exposing it in that way could be harmful. On a sidenote, as great as fumbbl is, i highly doubt we would succeed with it (Never let anyone tell you a handful of people couldnt change the world, its been always like this. Believe it needs a crowd of people to change things, you are being fooled).
Like others, i also think [L] could do a lot of what is suggested without having to wear that stamp.
Like others i do think your stuff is well written with good intention but overall naive and maybe even contradicting. The part about fluff is so contradicting and mindless it should hurt your own brain.
OT: On the Chess comparison (get a grip people or i'll laugh! ;)
I can only second the people saying BB is not comparable to chess or go.
It really isnt. And more important it doesnt help anyone giving people, especially newcomers, that impression.
It wont help them finding an attitude that enables them to really enjoy themselves with the game.
Much rather the difference, and face it - for a lot of people BB is a love/ hate thing much rather than a clear love thing and it doesnt help anyone (nor the game) to deny that fact!
One of the reasons is the wrong impression people give by being too enthusiastic and not critical enough. Its a minor one rather, but its the one thats been touched here so i wont get into other points (that actually have a big impact imho).
If it gets to the point were people feeling dumb and others are seen or act as if they were superior in terms of intellectual abilities because of this game, it does not only get ridiculous but actually harmful.
And actually this touches an area that makes BB indeed a bit unique imho - personally i do not know of any boardgame that arises so much strong emotions in grown up persons! Things might even get personal, guess most of us have experienced it, or one fights his emotions to not let it happen. I do think THIS is what makes BB special - and on a sidenote, its indeed no evidence that its anything near to chess.
Poker might be a more valid comparison in terms of cost-benefit reflections/ emotional situations. You invest a lot but might get little benefit in return, thus strong emotions arise (it might also keep you playing, this is a basic function in a gamers psychology). In terms of brainwork i do not know enough about poker, but i suppose it has strong similarities with BB.
Well, a much better comparison than chess obviously.
This is not a negative thing to say - if it feels so to you, than probably because you have a wrong impression of the game and invested a lot of emotions and work in this wrong impression.
Posted by albinv on 2013-12-22 18:37:25
@Adam
This is the first of your blogs/ posts that wont get a positive vote (5-6 normally), but a 1.
Keep posting good stuff. :)
This is the first of your blogs/ posts that wont get a positive vote (5-6 normally), but a 1.
Keep posting good stuff. :)