Tempey
Joined: Aug 13, 2010
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 Posted:
Aug 20, 2010 - 12:14 |
 
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Just a idea - is there any plans/thoughts to reduce a players value based on permanant injurys they suffer? - i know there is nothing in the LRB, but just has a thought it might make injured players more enticing to keep around
say reduce cost 10k for a niggle, 30k for a MA/AV, and 40k for a AG and maybe 50k for a ST injury? (exact opposites of the gain in value on a skill)
'tis just a thought  |
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Lakrillo
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:18 |
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Injured players should be kicked when they prove to costly. This is part of the strategies of teambuilding, jus when is the right time to kick that superstar with multiple niggles. He is ace as long as he is standing, but almost always leaves the leaves the plan as soon as he goes down.
As FFB struggle to be as close to the rules as possible, things like this won't be implemented. |
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SneakyFox
Joined: Oct 29, 2005
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:19 |
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Perhaps but with the minor alteration that it should take into account the starting stats of the player. For example, AG- to a zombie would make it a technically free player while not having an effect to its usefulness. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:26 |
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TS formula already does it |
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Tempey
Joined: Aug 13, 2010
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:31 |
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Lakrillo
was just a thought - you are almost certainly right - but i'll now go and sob because you efficently shot down my fantastic idea... /sob 
Sneakyfox
and true - I did think of that, and was thinking something like half the skill values, but thought i would leave the idea how it came to me and let people comment as they would
Zakatan
FFB doesn't really care for TS formula at the moment - its all based around TV |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:40 |
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| Tempey wrote: |
Zakatan
FFB doesn't really care for TS formula at the moment - its all based around TV |
And similarly goes for SkiJunkie's client for Lrb4 with TR. The TS is purely a FUMBBL invention for the purpose of determining rankings on www.FUMMBL.com . It has no in-game effect.
I am certain there will be no plans to have any in-game effect for team value due to injuries in LRB5/6 because as you say, it is not part of the LRB. (Of course there may be a tweaking of TS for LRB 5/6 for rankings purposes). |
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maysrill
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:57 |
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TS has no in-game effect, but the effect on getting games is huge. Most people ignore TR and a lot don't really get into many non-tourney matches that involve handicaps. Games are chosen based largely on TS. Also, the Blackbox scheduler uses TS as the base line for setting up matches.
Under the TV system, the heartless and powergamy among us will fire a player for the slightest deficiency. |
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James_Probert
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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Aug 20, 2010 - 13:11 |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Aug 20, 2010 - 13:18 |
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Indeed, TS is hugely relevant for Blackbox. And I suspect in an ideal world any new scheduler would want to take into account -stats rather than just TV for "fairness" purposes. Not doing so, would - as maysrill says - rather encourage power gaming. But in all honesty to get a new version of TS right on a practical level might well cause more problems than it solves. -ag on many players doesnt lessen their "real" value at all for example. Right now I love -ag on my dwarf beards in the current blackbox system, as it drops my TS without having any real effect on performance. And thats leaving aside the real winners of that system like Trolls/Treemen/Snotlings etc.
So in order to get a perfect system you would need quite complex and perhaps even race specific rules. So, IMO, its probably best just to accept power gaming and use TV as per the rulebook. It isnt perfect but any alternative would likely not be either. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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Aug 20, 2010 - 13:32 |
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Use of TV alone should promote good team management, which is not, nor should it be confused with Powergaming.
At the moment in Blackbox we have the bizarre situation where it's of benefit to get -MA or -AV on your reserve lineman, which can reduce their TS from 5.5 to 3.0. This is actually encouraging bad team management and Powergaming.
So I think TV should be used alone, if people want to keep the double niggled -MA star, it's their call. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Aug 20, 2010 - 14:46 |
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I really, really hope TS will disappear completely with the new client. The TS/TR thing is too confusing and contributes to picking in Ranked. (imo) I understand a lot of work went into it to add balancing and there are advantages for LRB4 rules, but I think the new rules make it unnecessary.
Stick with TV and let the inducements do their thing. Leave it up to the coach to decide the true value of that niggled player. The management part of this game is a lot of the fun and I think the new TV system helps that. |
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maysrill
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
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Aug 20, 2010 - 14:57 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | I really, really hope TS will disappear completely with the new client. The TS/TR thing is too confusing and contributes to picking in Ranked. (imo) I understand a lot of work went into it to add balancing and there are advantages for LRB4 rules, but I think the new rules make it unnecessary.
Stick with TV and let the inducements do their thing. Leave it up to the coach to decide the true value of that niggled player. The management part of this game is a lot of the fun and I think the new TV system helps that. |
Picking would go WAY up without TS. Any noob can compare 2 numbers and see that the teams are roughly evenly matched. Learning that TS represents real teams strength (or at least the local best guess at it) took me as long as it took to read the Help file for new players, when I started here.
Learning how to weigh whether 2 teams are evenly matched with TV is easier than it is with TR (which honestly has little to do with how strong a team is, just how big). It still ignores the relative power of skills like Guard and combinations like Blodge. TV will overrate +MA on many players (linemen, BoBs, longbeards) and underrate it on others (wardancers, gutter runners, etc). Is Guard really more powerful on a DE lineman than a longbeard? Not really, it's just harder to get, but you pay more TV for it on a DE team.
And are players less likely to help you win if they are injured? Yes. You can talk all you want about "proper team management", but if you're looking to compare 2 teams and decide what match best gives each side an even chance of winning (aside from luck and coach skill), you have to take them into account.
You get penalized in Ranked for keeping injured players around, by the fact that they take up a roster spot that could be filled by a healthy player. When building up a team for a major (which is a factor in much of Ranked team-building), you need to decide whether the -ma on your +AG thrower is still worth it, or whether you should develop a new one. In any hand-picked or scheduler-selected game, only the current teams should be considered. Only for tournaments is the opportunity cost of a roster spot and the max power of a team a consideration. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Aug 20, 2010 - 15:22 |
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The thing with TV in LRB 5,6, is that it is a more accurate indicator of the strength of a team than the old TR system is, which is trivial to power-game.
A few injuries not taken into account does cause some mis-representation, but an increased cost for stat increases, double skill rolls, not counting missing players and not worrying about SPP, but only about number of skills means that the new TV system is already pretty close to the TS that was developed specially for FUMBBL...
[edit] I am going to suggest that the problem is not with uneven team match ups - the inducement system is pretty good (a few injuries aside) - but with uneven coach match ups. There are some veteran coaches here, and it may take some practice to get to their level... |
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Lakrillo
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
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Aug 20, 2010 - 15:52 |
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TS is not a good measure of how strong a team is. A dwarf team against an amazon team with the same TS is not a fair matchup.
By just checking TS noobs get tricked into thinking that it is a fair matchup when it in reality isn't. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Aug 20, 2010 - 15:58 |
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Gnomes are trash
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